Random talking point - Goneva incident "against the spirit of the game" or clever gamesmanship?

[twitchy]

[Mikey Brown]

Nothing wrong with trying it, but if the ref is unsighted you can't really complain that it wasn't allowed. If it had gone to the TMO then been awarded a try it would have been awful. I don't see why the act itself is different than any other dummy in open play, but he shouldn't be on the refs case about not seeing it.

[Puja]

I think I'm against it, not necessarily for what he did, but the way it was done. If he just dummies putting it down and Saracens aren't paying attention, then that's their look-out and he should be allowed to play. However, doing it with his back turned and touching it down on his toe, Saracens have no realistic way of telling that he hasn't touched it down - it's not them being lax; it's something they can't defend against (unless they choose to tackle anyone running to take a quick 22 on the basis that it might've been a dummy touch down).

I'm on the ref's side, not least because he blew his whistle and called "22!" which stopped the game regardless of what anyone else had done.

I think we can all agree that it was a terrible drop goal attempt by Fazlet. If we need 3 points in the last minute of a RWC game, I'd be bricking it if any of him, Ford, or Cipriani were sitting in the pocket.

Puja

[Puja]

Nothing wrong with trying it, but if the ref is unsighted you can't really complain that it wasn't allowed. If it had gone to the TMO then been awarded a try it would have been awful. I don't see why the act itself is different than any other dummy in open play, but he shouldn't be on the refs case about not seeing it.

Because if you don't buy a dummy in open play, you can tackle them, but if you tackle someone who's appears to touch the ball dead and looks like they're running to take a quick 22, then it's a yellow card?

I'd call it in a similar category to dummying a lineout throw or from the back of a scrum, rather than a dummy in open play. As I said above - I'd have far fewer problems if he'd done it facing forwards so that it was possible for anyone from Saracens to have any chance to see that it was a dummy.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Nothing wrong with trying it, but if the ref is unsighted you can't really complain that it wasn't allowed. If it had gone to the TMO then been awarded a try it would have been awful. I don't see why the act itself is different than any other dummy in open play, but he shouldn't be on the refs case about not seeing it.

Because if you don't buy a dummy in open play, you can tackle them, but if you tackle someone who's appears to touch the ball dead and looks like they're running to take a quick 22, then it's a yellow card?

Puja

I agree in that sense. I meant that I don't think it's generally against the spirit of the game to dummy dotting the ball down. I figured he just happened to be facing away at the time, but if the intention was to do it in a way where the Sarries players couldn't see the ball that does seem a little more deceptive.

[fivepointer]

If you play to the whistle then it shouldnt be an issue. You assume the ball is live until the refs blows. If the ref thinks the ball is grounded when a player makes a move that indicates that is going to happen, then i dont think the player can have a gripe when the whistle is blown. TV replays to determine one way or another are a complete no no.

[Mellsblue]

As above. Facing so all can see is fair game. If nobody can see what you’ve done then it’s a no from me - mainly because the ref will automatically call a 22 drop out, as happened yesterday.

[Raggs]

Scrum half isn't allowed to dummy picking the ball up at the base of the ruck either.

For me if he'd done it forward facing, and the ref hadn't blown, then play on, but you play to the whistle, and if the whistle has gone you've not been clever enough.

[Adam_P]

Scrum half isn't allowed to dummy picking the ball up at the base of the ruck either.

Are they not? You see this all the time, 9s placing hands down on the floor either side of the ball to rock the defensively line forward onto their toes. Never seen it penalised.

[Raggs]

Scrum half isn't allowed to dummy picking the ball up at the base of the ruck either.

Are they not? You see this all the time, 9s placing hands down on the floor either side of the ball to rock the defensively line forward onto their toes. Never seen it penalised.

They can put their hands on the ball, but not make a jerking motion, pretending to lift it. And yes, you do often see it, and whilst the ref's don't seem to penalise it, they equally don't seem too bothered about any cries of Offside for that phase.

[Puja]

Scrum half isn't allowed to dummy picking the ball up at the base of the ruck either.

Are they not? You see this all the time, 9s placing hands down on the floor either side of the ball to rock the defensively line forward onto their toes. Never seen it penalised.

That's considered not quite dummying and you get away wih it, like running left from a scrum while the 8 goes right. You don't see a s/h doing a full fake pass from the base, cause that defindefinitely would be pinged.

Puja

[Peej]

Scrum half isn't allowed to dummy picking the ball up at the base of the ruck either.

For me if he'd done it forward facing, and the ref hadn't blown, then play on, but you play to the whistle, and if the whistle has gone you've not been clever enough.

Or too clever.

It's definitely not a "game value offence" as it's no different from shaping to kick and then not, but the ref had blow the whistle so the game was dead at that point.

[Digby]

It was a nice effort from Goneva but unless as standard that player is expecting to get tackled just in case then really it should be a proper restart

I wonder what the ref would have done though had he spotted the ball wasn't touched down, and if Goneva had even dropped the ball for a 5m scrum to Sarries?

[Puja]

It was a nice effort from Goneva but unless as standard that player is expecting to get tackled just in case then really it should be a proper restart

I wonder what the ref would have done though had he spotted the ball wasn't touched down, and if Goneva had even dropped the ball for a 5m scrum to Sarries?

I think it was Greenwood in the SA pool game in 2003 who caught the ball from a missed penalty and then threw it forward for the quick 22 without remembering to touch it down first. Thankfully, we defended the 5m scrum successfully, but it was a bit fraught.

Puja

[Peat]

Is the ref calling game play offence against the dummy, or against insisting on running the entire length of the pitch despite the ref repeatedly making it clear not to? Because I think the latter definitely is.

I'm also of the opinion that, while reluctant to come down against good sneaky tricks, any fake out of this nature should be banned just to keep life simple. It's that or tackling every guy bringing the ball somewhere just in case the play went live somewhere without you noticing.

p.s. The SH example would be impossible to police because the SH is within his rights to get as ready to take the ball out of the ruck without actually doing so, which includes putting his hands on the ground next to the ball.

[Raggs]

If you've tricked the ref, your dummy was too good. He blew the whistle, that's it. Do it, make it clear to the ref you've not touched it down, and see if you've tricked the opposition. Doing it with your back turned isn't fair game in my mind.

[Which Tyler]

I'm going with classifying it like a dummy lineout or pass from the floor - illegal to go fully dummy, but can get away with it for a minor one.
Either way, ref's word is final, so as soon as he blows the whistle then the game is dead; if he thinks you've touched down, then it's a 22, whether you agree or not.

[I R Geech]

This is no different to sliding in out wide, pretending to dot the ball down only to jump up and leg it closer to the posts as soon as the oppo have left you alone. In other words, it’s fine and he just did it too well.

Back in the day we used to like setting up for a shot at the posts on a penalty having told the ref ‘I am not going for the posts’, and then tapping and going for the corner once the oppo gather under the posts. We used to try that a lot and no ref ever questioned it - as far as we were concerned it was up to the oppo to play to the whistle and listen to the ref. We also had a 9 who would sneakily tap the ball and then stride through the oppo counting loudly to 10 before legging it away. I’d say that neither were particularly within the spirit of the game, but once the speed and fitness are gone you get away with whatever you can.

[Peat]

This is no different to sliding in out wide, pretending to dot the ball down only to jump up and leg it closer to the posts as soon as the oppo have left you alone. In other words, it’s fine and he just did it too well.

The difference is if no one's going to complain if you jump on top of someone a little late to be sure they've dotted down the ball. Tackling everyone running the ball back a little for a 22 drop out would be a little different...

[I R Geech]

This is no different to sliding in out wide, pretending to dot the ball down only to jump up and leg it closer to the posts as soon as the oppo have left you alone. In other words, it’s fine and he just did it too well.

The difference is if no one's going to complain if you jump on top of someone a little late to be sure they've dotted down the ball. Tackling everyone running the ball back a little for a 22 drop out would be a little different...

You play to the whistle.

[Digby]

So I can dot the ball down for a 22 and if the ref forgets to blow his whistle I could get smashed from the side when not expecting anything?

[Peat]

This is no different to sliding in out wide, pretending to dot the ball down only to jump up and leg it closer to the posts as soon as the oppo have left you alone. In other words, it’s fine and he just did it too well.

The difference is if no one's going to complain if you jump on top of someone a little late to be sure they've dotted down the ball. Tackling everyone running the ball back a little for a 22 drop out would be a little different...

You play to the whistle.

So you do.

But you said they're no different, and I pointed out how they were. Generally dummying moving from one phase of the game where the opponent must stay behind a line to another where they can move freely isn't allowed.

[I R Geech]

We’re getting pedantic now, but my point was that whether a player appears to put the ball down for a try or a drop out and the ref doesn’t blow the whistle, then they are playable and can be hit. If it’s open play, which both are, and there’s no whistle, then there are no lines.

[Digby]

So any time there's no whistle I can play? If Lawes pays attention he could have some fun

[Mikey Brown]

I mean, they surely just blow the whistle. This is an odd scenario being described isn’t it? Every so often somebody tacklers a fielder that’s clearly called a mark but the ref hasn’t had a chance to blow the whistle yet, a bit of shoving follows, I can’t remember anything remarkable coming from it.