FKAS wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:03 pm
I presume old man Cole is just taking some post season rest. Shame Kelly's end of season uplift in form wasn't enough to make the camp.
Is his potential future with Ireland unclear due to Borthwick’s interest in him or vice versa? I don’t know if there was any more than speculation to that idea?
It feels like he’s been ‘the next 12’ for ages now,
It does seem like a bit of an odd squad though. Very few dead certs for a 23 among them, but I don’t know what else he could realistically pick.
Kelly is still only 22. He broke through very early. Injuries have definitely hampered him. The whole Ireland thing was because Munster needed an IQ centre and Kelly's qualification resets next summer. I think Fissler put 2+2 together when Munster were searching for a centre and ran with it. Maybe Munster enquired as to his availability but he's Tigers go to centre and I doubt they'll let him leave mid contract. He's a very good all round player. Underrated passing game, tackles like a flanker, can carry in traffic and is pretty quick for an IC. His issue this season is his form has been gash for 3/4 of the season.
Not helped by him shifting between 12 and 13 and not having an attack coach nor a reliable 12 in defence when playing 13 (Kata likes to fly out the line and smash people).
FKAS wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:03 pm
I presume old man Cole is just taking some post season rest. Shame Kelly's end of season uplift in form wasn't enough to make the camp.
Is his potential future with Ireland unclear due to Borthwick’s interest in him or vice versa? I don’t know if there was any more than speculation to that idea?
It feels like he’s been ‘the next 12’ for ages now,
It does seem like a bit of an odd squad though. Very few dead certs for a 23 among them, but I don’t know what else he could realistically pick.
It seems perfectly logical to me - all of them will either tour, or be on the edges of a tour squad with potential to kick on in the next year or so, or is Charlie Atkinson. Who's standing out for you as out of place, apart from the long-shot hope at 10?
Because I was doing this for me and thought I may as well share:
Fin Baxter (Harlequins)
Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers)
Rusi Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins)
Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs)
Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers)
It is an XV with options to rotate at 6, 8, 9 and 10. Both 6s and both 9s will tour, the two 8s are likely in a shootout to tour, and the spare 10 is presumably just there for future development/standing in if MSmith has a niggle.
Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:00 pm
Northmore ahead of Beard is interesting call though.
I approve of the smaller squad though. No point calling up players who are not realistically going to be in contention - just focus on inculcating the systems into this lot.
Puja
Beard has only been playing because Northmore and Joseph have spent the majority of the season out. He started pretty well but faded badly towards the end of the season and looked particularly clueless in defence. He has potential, but Northmore is a significantly better player.
Northmore is underrated. We really missed him and instantly looked a better side when he came back from injury. With Marchant unavailable, I think Northmore is genuinely in contention to press for being in the England squad on a regular basis. Might be controversial, but I think he’s better than Dingwall (at 13). Arguably his biggest competition might come from Will Joseph who was great when fit.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 8:42 am
Northmore's a good player, but i would have preferred to see Seb Atkinson get a call up.
Dont see Ogrhe as an international player. Blake would have been a better pick to my mind.
Otherwise, fair enough and i get the rationale for a small squad.
Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten Blake was available. He's the major missing name to my mind. Hope Australia don't have designs on him. I do like Oghre though - I think there's a lot of potential there - but it is a big call to have him ahead of Blamire and Blake.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:58 pm
It does seem like a bit of an odd squad though. Very few dead certs for a 23 among them, but I don’t know what else he could realistically pick.
It seems perfectly logical to me - all of them will either tour, or be on the edges of a tour squad with potential to kick on in the next year or so, or is Charlie Atkinson. Who's standing out for you as out of place, apart from the long-shot hope at 10?
Puja
It’s not so much the individuals, more that it hardly seems worth announcing a training squad at all when they can’t even form a competitive scrum.
I guess Borthwick is happy with Lawrence there but surely looking at an actual 12 at some point has to be worth a go. Maybe that’s Dingwall coming back in though? Maybe it’s Charlie Atkinson instead of Seb?!
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 9:30 am
why no chessum? Roots meh, ditto Malins...ibitoye?
I thought Chessum was injured? Maybe, Malins needs trying at FB before dumping him completely. Roots is just an adequate lump if injuries to others leave a vacancy. Ibitoye, I don't rate that highly in the wing rankings - though I'd have him ahead of Malins at 11/14 if that was your point.
I still maintain Malins is harshly regarded on here. He didn't set the world alight for England, out of position, in a team that was determined not to use its wingers, but he's always been good and scored losds of tries in the Prem and has skills and composure enough to play 10 there. If we're looking to develop competition to Furbank as the creative 15, he's a good shout to have a look at.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun May 26, 2024 7:58 pm
It does seem like a bit of an odd squad though. Very few dead certs for a 23 among them, but I don’t know what else he could realistically pick.
It seems perfectly logical to me - all of them will either tour, or be on the edges of a tour squad with potential to kick on in the next year or so, or is Charlie Atkinson. Who's standing out for you as out of place, apart from the long-shot hope at 10?
Puja
It’s not so much the individuals, more that it hardly seems worth announcing a training squad at all when they can’t even form a competitive scrum.
That makes sense. I suppose the logic is that it's a rare occasion to have access to players and any 4 day training camp is not to be sniffed at. Especially when it allows FJones to drill the newbies in the defensive system so they're ready should they need to be called up in the future.
I think Malins could be the answer at 15, if Furbank doesn’t cut out the mistakes, and W Joseph the answer at 13. I rate them both and I think Joseph could be world class.
Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 11:12 am
I still maintain Malins is harshly regarded on here. He didn't set the world alight for England, out of position, in a team that was determined not to use its wingers, but he's always been good and scored losds of tries in the Prem and has skills and composure enough to play 10 there. If we're looking to develop competition to Furbank as the creative 15, he's a good shout to have a look at.
It seems perfectly logical to me - all of them will either tour, or be on the edges of a tour squad with potential to kick on in the next year or so, or is Charlie Atkinson. Who's standing out for you as out of place, apart from the long-shot hope at 10?
Puja
It’s not so much the individuals, more that it hardly seems worth announcing a training squad at all when they can’t even form a competitive scrum.
That makes sense. I suppose the logic is that it's a rare occasion to have access to players and any 4 day training camp is not to be sniffed at. Especially when it allows FJones to drill the newbies in the defensive system so they're ready should they need to be called up in the future.
Puja
I'll maintain that Malins is a skilled player but lacks bottle at intl level...based on seeing him live and close up at Twickenham. Maybe it was being out of position if being kind.
Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 11:04 am
Malins and Dombrandt can, frankly, fuck off, but no complaints outside of them.
I'm still kind of hoping Dombrandt can get there.
It's nuts that his ceiling seems to be 'exceptional club player'.
Has he ever been given the set up to play to his strengths? I’m willing to be corrected, but in my mind, almost all of his caps were pre-RWC when we were still asking our 8 to be a battering ram.
I agree that not picking Blake is a missed opportunity. It’s a bit of a moot point as I’d expect the hooker options on tour will be George, Dan and one of either LCD or preferably Langdon, but I just don’t really see Oghre making it at test level, while I do see that level of potential in Blake.
