Japan vs England team speculation

[Mikey Brown]

I'm still kind of hoping Dombrandt can get there.

It's nuts that his ceiling seems to be 'exceptional club player'.

Has he ever been given the set up to play to his strengths? I’m willing to be corrected, but in my mind, almost all of his caps were pre-RWC when we were still asking our 8 to be a battering ram.

I have a similar feeling about Dombrandt, but the fact is Earl has come in at 8 and managed to show his pace, aggression and intensity in carrying, whilst being fairly decent elsewhere on the field.

I don’t know why it’s worked that way, but Dombrandt has had a few runs off the bench filling (you would presume) a similar role to Earl at 8 and he’s looked better than before, but not wholly convincing.

Is Oghre just too small or is there more to it?

[Mellsblue]

I still maintain Malins is harshly regarded on here. He didn't set the world alight for England, out of position, in a team that was determined not to use its wingers, but he's always been good and scored losds of tries in the Prem and has skills and composure enough to play 10 there. If we're looking to develop competition to Furbank as the creative 15, he's a good shout to have a look at.

It’s not so much the individuals, more that it hardly seems worth announcing a training squad at all when they can’t even form a competitive scrum.

That makes sense. I suppose the logic is that it's a rare occasion to have access to players and any 4 day training camp is not to be sniffed at. Especially when it allows FJones to drill the newbies in the defensive system so they're ready should they need to be called up in the future.

Puja

I'll maintain that Malins is a skilled player but lacks bottle at intl level...based on seeing him live and close up at Twickenham. Maybe it was being out of position if being kind.

I read an interview in which he said he never felt comfortable on the wing and subsequently lacked the confidence to play there at test level.

[Which Tyler]

Only problem with Malins at FB is that he's behind Firbank and Steward in the pecking order.
If we want a FB who plays like Furbank, but isn't Firbank, I can't think of a better option (maybe whoever wins the battle for FB at Bath over the next 18 months - in 18 months time)

[Banquo]

I still maintain Malins is harshly regarded on here. He didn't set the world alight for England, out of position, in a team that was determined not to use its wingers, but he's always been good and scored losds of tries in the Prem and has skills and composure enough to play 10 there. If we're looking to develop competition to Furbank as the creative 15, he's a good shout to have a look at.



That makes sense. I suppose the logic is that it's a rare occasion to have access to players and any 4 day training camp is not to be sniffed at. Especially when it allows FJones to drill the newbies in the defensive system so they're ready should they need to be called up in the future.

Puja

I'll maintain that Malins is a skilled player but lacks bottle at intl level...based on seeing him live and close up at Twickenham. Maybe it was being out of position if being kind.

I read an interview in which he said he never felt comfortable on the wing and subsequently lacked the confidence to play there at test level.

Fair enough. He's always looked like a 10 out of position and confidence to me at intl level.

[Banquo]

I'm still kind of hoping Dombrandt can get there.

It's nuts that his ceiling seems to be 'exceptional club player'.

Has he ever been given the set up to play to his strengths?

Is he good enough to set a side up around?

[FKAS]

It's nuts that his ceiling seems to be 'exceptional club player'.

Has he ever been given the set up to play to his strengths?

Is he good enough to set a side up around?

I mean he's got to play 8 in the current system where Earl has a broader remit than just truck it up. Dombrant was fine off the bench in the 6N, didn't do anything wrong but didn't really offer much carrying threat against tired defenders either. Needs to up his physicality, for a big guy he lacks impact at the top level.

[Oakboy]

Dombrandt has 17 caps. Is it reasonable to give him yet another chance ahead of the other contenders? I think he has a pretty special skill-set but others are simply more likely to be effective in the 8 shirt, especially judged on 80 minute contributions game after game.

[FKAS]

Dombrandt has 17 caps. Is it reasonable to give him yet another chance ahead of the other contenders? I think he has a pretty special skill-set but others are simply more likely to be effective in the 8 shirt, especially judged on 80 minute contributions game after game.

There's no guarantee he'll get another one. Fisilau is in the squad and Barbeary could join up after Bath's season ends. Earl will definitely be included. He's going to need to show up well in training to make the tour.

[Scrumhead]

It's nuts that his ceiling seems to be 'exceptional club player'.

Has he ever been given the set up to play to his strengths?

Is he good enough to set a side up around?

No. He isn’t. But he deserves better than being deemed not good enough mainly for struggling to do a decent impression of Billy Vunipola. He hasn’t made the best of his chances, but I can’t help but feel that he’s been dealt a pretty poor hand. OTOH, I agree with @Mikey’s point that Earl took his chance (more luck than judgement on Borthwick’s part).

I would definitely stick with Earl at 8 given his performance level. However, as a second choice, I think Dombrandt’s skillset has the most potential to do damage at test level. I’m willing to give Barbeary a chance, but I do wonder whether he’s a bit of a one-trick pony, while I just don’t really see Fisilau’s point of difference. Sure he’s promising, but I think you need a USP at test level and at this point in time, I don’t know what his is?

[Mikey Brown]

I get what you mean with Fisilau. Obviously not a comparison of overall quality, but you could say he’s vaguely in the Aldritt style.

Barbeary’s one trick would be very useful if he can pull it off at the top level.

[Puja]

Malins is apparently playing 10 now for bris.

Only in the second half of the game vs Quins - he played there when Sheedy went off. Don't think it's likely to be a regular thing.

Puja

[FKAS]

Malins is apparently playing 10 now for bris.

Only in the second half of the game vs Quins - he played there when Sheedy went off. Don't think it's likely to be a regular thing.

Puja

Sheedy is off in the summer with no replacement announced. A J McGinty is unlikely to play every game in a season unless someone else comes in you'd assume Williams and Malins might do some covering.

[Stom]

Has he ever been given the set up to play to his strengths?

Is he good enough to set a side up around?

I mean he's got to play 8 in the current system where Earl has a broader remit than just truck it up. Dombrant was fine off the bench in the 6N, didn't do anything wrong but didn't really offer much carrying threat against tired defenders either. Needs to up his physicality, for a big guy he lacks impact at the top level.

He never really had a chance to get into a game in this system, though. If Earl is absent for whatever reason, I would give Dombrandt the chance.

But would we pick him on the bench over other options? Not sure about that. I think when Curry returns, it'll be hard for him to find a spot. CCS is surely being groomed as the 6/8 option.

Barbeary is an interesting option. Other nations would drop him in the deep end pretty quickly. Will we?

[FKAS]

Is he good enough to set a side up around?

I mean he's got to play 8 in the current system where Earl has a broader remit than just truck it up. Dombrant was fine off the bench in the 6N, didn't do anything wrong but didn't really offer much carrying threat against tired defenders either. Needs to up his physicality, for a big guy he lacks impact at the top level.

He never really had a chance to get into a game in this system, though. If Earl is absent for whatever reason, I would give Dombrandt the chance.

But would we pick him on the bench over other options? Not sure about that. I think when Curry returns, it'll be hard for him to find a spot. CCS is surely being groomed as the 6/8 option.

Barbeary is an interesting option. Other nations would drop him in the deep end pretty quickly. Will we?

Half an hour split equally over the last two games of the 6N for Dombrant. He's going to run out of chances sooner rather than later. Even small ones like the 6N.

Will be interesting to see who Borthwick takes on tour. There's some space for experimenting. CCS is definitely seen as one for both now and the future. I think Barbeary has a good chance, Borthwick wants an 8 who's aggressive both sides of the ball and Alfie certainly offers that.

[Beasties]

Baxter starting with Rodd off the bench?

Where does Obano fit into this tour? He started the season like a train but seemed to tail off a bit and be less noticeable.

Rodd’s really looking like proper international quality now. I’ve been a little meh on him but lately he’s won me over.

As far as Painter’s concerned, what is the question we’re asking if he’s the answer? Harper looked good in that Sarries match. Proper put his injury problems behind him. Granted he was up against Mako so a low bar, but still.

Painter is 26 so if he’s going to kick on, it needs to be soon.

We lack a big, scrummaging tighthead and physically, he’s got the frame to be useful. However, at this point, that’s it. He needs to develop his scrummaging and work rate to be more than just a big heavy bloke who is hard to move.

In the first third of the season he was starting to look like the move to Exeter was having a positive impact, but that kind of tailed off.

The opportunity is there, but unless he finds some way of making good on his physical gifts very soon, he’ll not get beyond his current level.

On the plus side, generally the game time he’s not getting is going to Marcus Street who is smaller, but younger and more of a technical scrummager. Of the Exeter props, he’s probably the one I’m pinning more hopes on.

Harper is my big hope though. Big lad, decent scrummager and has a bit of dynamism around the park.

Just on Painter, I’ve seen a bit of Exeter lately and I’m honestly baffled as to why anyone would want to play a player at international level (after all) who does so little. He does naff all at Exeter. He isn’t even all that as a scrummager. I don’t want to be personal but he barely moves. I want a lot lot more out of my Eng TH. He makes Julian White look like PSdT. Harper is defo of interest. The other lad at Sale, Opuku-Fordjour needs keeping away at the moment but is one for the future absolutely. Let’s not rush him.

[Puja]

Rodd’s really looking like proper international quality now. I’ve been a little meh on him but lately he’s won me over.

As far as Painter’s concerned, what is the question we’re asking if he’s the answer? Harper looked good in that Sarries match. Proper put his injury problems behind him. Granted he was up against Mako so a low bar, but still.

Painter is 26 so if he’s going to kick on, it needs to be soon.

We lack a big, scrummaging tighthead and physically, he’s got the frame to be useful. However, at this point, that’s it. He needs to develop his scrummaging and work rate to be more than just a big heavy bloke who is hard to move.

In the first third of the season he was starting to look like the move to Exeter was having a positive impact, but that kind of tailed off.

The opportunity is there, but unless he finds some way of making good on his physical gifts very soon, he’ll not get beyond his current level.

On the plus side, generally the game time he’s not getting is going to Marcus Street who is smaller, but younger and more of a technical scrummager. Of the Exeter props, he’s probably the one I’m pinning more hopes on.

Harper is my big hope though. Big lad, decent scrummager and has a bit of dynamism around the park.

Just on Painter, I’ve seen a bit of Exeter lately and I’m honestly baffled as to why anyone would want to play a player at international level (after all) who does so little. He does naff all at Exeter. He isn’t even all that as a scrummager. I don’t want to be personal but he barely moves. I want a lot lot more out of my Eng TH. He makes Julian White look like PSdT. Harper is defo of interest. The other lad at Sale, Opuku-Fordjour needs keeping away at the moment but is one for the future absolutely. Let’s not rush him.

At the start of the season, Painter looked a very different player - he looked like he'd cracked it and was kicking on. He was regularly present and effective in the loose, with 3 tries in 8 games, and was strong at the scrum and in the carry. Unfortunately, it turned out just to be a run of good form, and he's now reverted to the mean.

I'm interested in Harper in theory, but I've seen so little of him for Sale that I'm having to take other people's word for it. I am concerned by just how recently he's broken into the Sale starting lineup though - he only started being first choice for Sale in March, and that because Schonert was injured, not because he'd forced his way past.

Agreed that AOF definitely needs one more season, probably two, before he should be considered for England.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I’ve never even watched Painter play but the Julian White/PSdT line got a good laugh.

[Oakboy]

IMO, Painter is just a classic example of rugby thinking that 'big must be good'.

[TheDasher]

I've only watched Painter perhaps 3 times and I wouldn't have thought he's anywhere near the required level - I think he stands out as being obviously too immobile, but perhaps I missed his 'good form'. I think the 'big must be good' element you refer to is kind of fair when we go through these periods of looking really underpowered (which we occasionally do) - but I think that's far from the case now.

I've said for 12 months or so that I think the prem has lots of great young/youngish talent coming through and I think we're seeing it more than ever now, there are quite a few exciting options to pick from in most positions that have imo quite a lot of talent/potential - in the positions where that doesn't feel like it's the case, there's often some exciting prospects just a year or two away.

Which leads me on to say that Sore Bollocks has an opportunity now to really build something. How he selects, rotates, doesn't hire and fire too much (this has been the chronic problem at times) will be the skilful bit that I can imagine is bloody difficult to get right.

[FKAS]

Painter has generally been good at the scrum and quiet elsewhere. As Puja says first third of the season he really did play well. Chiefs allowed him to increase his weight a bit and it seemed like a great idea, dominant at scrum time and some very effective carries in the tight exchanges. Not very mobile obviously but you could perhaps have worked around that for his other qualities. It didn't last and he's been pretty poor the remaining 2/3s of the season. Possibly some injury niggles but nowhere near consideration currently.

[Oakboy]

Generally, I think rugby needs more welfare/health consideration and planning.

Curry is reportedly available again but Sanderson is quoted as saying that it will cost him in terms of shortening his career etc. It sounds to me like his hip condition is chronic and degrading. Family/life asessment may need thought, perhaps giving up early on internationals.

I look at Painter and see a fat man. How can his joints and muscles cope with hauling excess bulk around in a quest to compete against healthier (slimmer) specimems? Long-term, there must be damage.

Then, there is Itoje, reportedly going on tour despite being at or beyond playing time limits. He may, arguably, be our best player but surely a summer off would do HIM more good and, possibly, the team in the wider scheme of things.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, talk of Curry returning to the England back row seems odd given how major this injury/surgery has been. We have no idea if he'll get close to where he was.

Frankly I don't think he's looked all that great (relative to his obvious world class status) for a couple of years prior. I don't know if it was just excess gym during lay-offs or when he was asked to fill in at 8 but he put on an insane amount of muscle, and seemed to be playing (or injured from playing) at the top level almost continuously since he was 20. Both twins are clearly quite genetically gifted, but it's a lot to ask of anyone.

I'm glad the AOF hype has calmed a bit. I'd like to see Baxter get a taste of playing for England but really hope we've got a good long-term strategy to not overwork young players, particularly forwards.

Itoje seems incredibly resilient and clearly takes good care of himself, but it does seem like he's due a rest. You'd hate for the injuries to start creeping in at this point.

[fivepointer]

IMO, Painter is just a classic example of rugby thinking that 'big must be good'.

Size does matter. Particularly at THP.

The modern game demands props do more than scrummage and maul and Painter's lack of impact in the loose is what will stop him going any further.

Harper has shown up well now he's been given a run of games.

Size will count against AOF as a TH. Sensibly he plays LH for the u20s and this is really where his future lies.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm not sure why we're discussing someone so desperately short of the standard for even being in contention.

[Puja]

I'm not sure why we're discussing someone so desperately short of the standard for even being in contention.

Especially considering the discussion is limited to us all agreeing on him being a long way away from being up to it.

Size will count against AOF as a TH. Sensibly he plays LH for the u20s and this is really where his future lies.

I am happy with AOF going either side; I just want consensus on his development from everyone involved. Loosehead does seem to make more sense in terms of Sela/Fasogbon at U20s and hopefully the same conclusion will be drawn at Sale now that Harper is apparently kicking on sufficiently that he's a potential England player.

Either way, as Dasher days, we've got a real golden crop of players coming through at prop and elsewhere - potentially some huge battles for international selection. Hopefully iron sharpens iron.

Puja