The Great Big England A Thread

[Oakboy]

Randall ahead of Quirke makes no sense to me. The former has shown he is not up to it. The latter can still be something special if he sustains fitness.

[Mikey Brown]

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

I'm missing how the first statement is connected to the second? Do you mean in terms of age?

Aren't Obano and VRR both in their 30s already? I thought both could potentially do a job in the first team still but I assume Borthwick has deemed them to have missed their chance. I don't know if Haffar or Kloska have higher honours in them or not, but given how quickly our prop stocks disntegrated ahead of the 6 nations it seems reasonable to look at some future options?

Roots and Dombrandt aren't exciting picks, granted, but I guess he wants a bit of experience among that very green pack. Someone like Harding might be a more adventurous pick, but would still end up being about 10th choice flanker if he's lucky.

Murley got beaten in the air at least twice the other week and should never be allowed on any pitch at any level.

[FKAS]

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

I'm missing how the first statement is connected to the second? Do you mean in terms of age?

Aren't Obano and VRR both in their 30s already? I thought both could potentially do a job in the first team still but I assume Borthwick has deemed them to have missed their chance. I don't know if Haffar or Kloska have higher honours in them or not, but given how quickly our prop stocks disntegrated ahead of the 6 nations it seems reasonable to look at some future options?

Roots and Dombrandt aren't exciting picks, granted, but I guess he wants a bit of experience among that very green pack. Someone like Harding might be a more adventurous pick, but would still end up being about 10th choice flanker if he's lucky.

Murley got beaten in the air at least twice the other week and should never be allowed on any pitch at any level.

I think both Roots and Dombrandt is overkill. Perhaps one with a younger option as we've also got Kenningham in there who isn't a rookie.

We know Murley's shortcomings, not sure playing in this one helps him address them but he'll probably score a few if the weather is passable. He does add leadership to the backline and add familiarity with Northmore.

We need to get experience into younger props. Which we are doing. Don't have a problem with that especially when the alternative is too older guys down the depth chart. Calling up Obano or VRR is only beneficial if we expect to need them later this campaign and want to keep their match fitness up.

It's a fair enough squad just lacks a bit of excitement.

[fivepointer]

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

I'm missing how the first statement is connected to the second? Do you mean in terms of age?

Aren't Obano and VRR both in their 30s already? I thought both could potentially do a job in the first team still but I assume Borthwick has deemed them to have missed their chance. I don't know if Haffar or Kloska have higher honours in them or not, but given how quickly our prop stocks disntegrated ahead of the 6 nations it seems reasonable to look at some future options?

Roots and Dombrandt aren't exciting picks, granted, but I guess he wants a bit of experience among that very green pack. Someone like Harding might be a more adventurous pick, but would still end up being about 10th choice flanker if he's lucky.

Murley got beaten in the air at least twice the other week and should never be allowed on any pitch at any level.

We've gone short term with Roots and Dombrandt, neither I suspect will play for England again, so why not the same logic at LHP?

Similarly is Searle (29) more likely to play for England than Atkinson? And yet we pick two young, inexperienced lads at prop.

The selection overall just seems a bit muddled to me.

[Mikey Brown]

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

I'm missing how the first statement is connected to the second? Do you mean in terms of age?

Aren't Obano and VRR both in their 30s already? I thought both could potentially do a job in the first team still but I assume Borthwick has deemed them to have missed their chance. I don't know if Haffar or Kloska have higher honours in them or not, but given how quickly our prop stocks disntegrated ahead of the 6 nations it seems reasonable to look at some future options?

Roots and Dombrandt aren't exciting picks, granted, but I guess he wants a bit of experience among that very green pack. Someone like Harding might be a more adventurous pick, but would still end up being about 10th choice flanker if he's lucky.

Murley got beaten in the air at least twice the other week and should never be allowed on any pitch at any level.

We've gone short term with Roots and Dombrandt, neither I suspect will play for England again, so why not the same logic at LHP?

Similarly is Searle (29) more likely to play for England than Atkinson? And yet we pick two young, inexperienced lads at prop.

The selection overall just seems a bit muddled to me.

Fair enough, especially on Searle who I assumed was a lot younger.

I'd guess it's trickier than it looks to balance the age/experience profile (and rewarding form) for an A team when results aren't honestly that important. It might be that if Obano and Davison had started (or Ewels at lock for instance) we'd have seen some young guns in the backrow, but we're already kind of stacked there in the first team?

There's also the practical consideration of which first team players are carrying niggles that might see them drop out at any moment. Who knows.

[Captainhaircut]

It doesn’t look an exciting side. Thinking about who is missing etc leads to it probably not being far away from what I’d want to see though.

Presuming Jibulu, Ilione and Joseph are injured plus Calouri and Friday are with under 20s. Also presuming Jack Bracken is injured since he didn’t play for Sarries at weekend.

Loosehead- as I’ve said previously, Obano is clearly ahead of these guys. He was with the main squad in the autumn. Outside of him, who should be in? Brantingham is just back from a lay off.

Lock- would have liked to see Sodeke, Burrow or Usher. Do we really think Tizard plays for England? Having a good season but not quite sure. Same possibly for Batley- I really like him but not sure he gets test caps.

Back row- not a back row I love but who is missing? Barbeary instead of Dombrandt I guess. Would have liked to have seen Arthur Green but maybe it’s a bit too early for him. Chick having a great season also. Not sure we can massively unhappy.

Scrum half- would have much preferred McParland or Bracken to Randall. Just don’t ever think he’ll be a test player. Could get on board with the logic of keeping away from Wales but then why is he starting ahead of Quirke?

Centres- should Ojomoh or Atkinson have not dropped down? Guess they might have had Lawrence been fit. Happy enough with the pairing given Joseph is injured and Woodward is having a bit of second season syndrome.

Back 3- seems fine to me. Radwan injured so these seem the next in line. Would have liked Hendy to start personally, probably at full back as that’s where he is probably best long term.

So maybe one of the three locks changed for a young un, maybe a change at 8, change at scrum half and possibly at full back.

It’s not some abomination of a side.

[SixAndAHalf]

Maybe I'm being harsh but my issue with the side is it contains too many players who will never threaten the senior side which defeats the purpose of it.

I would ideally want a mix of: (i) EPS members who need more international experience / exposure (appreciate made harder by the scheduling of the game); (ii) youngsters who could make the senior side if they hit their ceiling.

This could look something like (without the u20s):

Ilyogun; Dan; Sela; Bamber; Clark; THill; Kenningham; Fisalau; CBracken; Searle; Murley; SAtkinson; Ojomoh; Muir / OHC; Carpenter
Tuipolotu; Obano; Fasogbon; Burrow; Roots; Green; Quirke; CAtkinson

This way you learn something about every player - do the EPS members lead / stand out; and how do younger players adjust to an international environment?

[FKAS]

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

I'm missing how the first statement is connected to the second? Do you mean in terms of age?

Aren't Obano and VRR both in their 30s already? I thought both could potentially do a job in the first team still but I assume Borthwick has deemed them to have missed their chance. I don't know if Haffar or Kloska have higher honours in them or not, but given how quickly our prop stocks disntegrated ahead of the 6 nations it seems reasonable to look at some future options?

Roots and Dombrandt aren't exciting picks, granted, but I guess he wants a bit of experience among that very green pack. Someone like Harding might be a more adventurous pick, but would still end up being about 10th choice flanker if he's lucky.

Murley got beaten in the air at least twice the other week and should never be allowed on any pitch at any level.

We've gone short term with Roots and Dombrandt, neither I suspect will play for England again, so why not the same logic at LHP?

Similarly is Searle (29) more likely to play for England than Atkinson? And yet we pick two young, inexperienced lads at prop.

The selection overall just seems a bit muddled to me.

Yes. Neither are getting called up bar an injury crisis but Searle has the ability to control a game and mix up attack and tactical play. Atkinson doesn't. Great player ball in hand though Atkinson is, I think his limitations in game management are going to mean that he's probably got a better chance of making it at 15 for England.

I certainly understand the desire of the coaches to mix experience and inexperience in the pack. Keep things competitive. I just think the balance is slightly off in the backrow. Bamber and Batley is a nice mix at lock. Blamire, Kloska and Haffar is a nice mix in the front row. Backline is a nice mix, despite the fact we'd all go with Quirke over Randall.

I mean Mapletoft is in charge so no doubt it won't be a particularly good performance.

[Puja]

Similarly is Searle (29) more likely to play for England than Atkinson? And yet we pick two young, inexperienced lads at prop.

Yes. Neither are getting called up bar an injury crisis but Searle has the ability to control a game and mix up attack and tactical play. Atkinson doesn't. Great player ball in hand though Atkinson is, I think his limitations in game management are going to mean that he's probably got a better chance of making it at 15 for England.

Very much agreed. Wild as it is to be contemplating this, there is a vacancy for a 4th choice fly-half for England - at present, it'd likely be Furbank/Slade out of position, which isn't ideal. With the way Searle is playing, he's 100% the form pick and I'm interested to see if he can step up to a higher level to be our 4th choice. I don't see CAtkinson ever rising to a level of control as a 10 where I wouldn't likely still prefer Furbank.

I mean Mapletoft is in charge so no doubt it won't be a particularly good performance.

This is really the crux of the matter. I suspect we will learn little to nothing about anyone, especially with it being a wet and cold evening match.

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

I never quite get the apathy for Atkinson. He’s just turned 24 and I reckon he’s probably started less than 30 games at 10 in his career. He’s always looked very good whenever he’s played there for me and gone particularly well for England A at 10. I think this season he’s made a big step up and looked good at full back too.

His main weaknesses are his game control and goalkicking.

First one comes primiarly with time in the seat which he’ll hopefully get now Skivington has realised Ross Byrne is dreadful.


Second one is definitely a concern and not going to be helped by Barton kicking goals at Gloucs. Maybe when Redshaw is fit, they’ll bite the bullet and have Atkinson kick goals.

[Which Tyler]

I never quite get the apathy for Atkinson. He’s just turned 24 and I reckon he’s probably started less than 30 games at 10 in his career. He’s always looked very good whenever he’s played there for me and gone particularly well for England A at 10. I think this season he’s made a big step up and looked good at full back too.

He's started 58 games at FH
He has NOT always looked good, let alone "very good" whenever he's played there - of his England A matches that I've watched, he's been... functional at best.
I fully agree that he's looked good at FB

I'm not writing him off, he's 24, and some players are late developers - and he's playing better the last 18 months than I've seen from him, albeit mostly off the bench or starting at FB.

Despite this, this season, he's not playing as well as Searle (or Worsley), last season he wasn't playing as well as Bailey, (or Donoghue or Benson) - despite playing more matches (for a poorer team)

[Captainhaircut]

I think this is where goalkicking and playing at 10 get conflated- and I get why as most of the time your 10 has to kick goals.

I’ve seen absolutely nothing from Benson or Worsley to suggest they have the attacking game or quality of Atkinson. They have kicked goals incredibly well but Worsley has looked very average in attack. I would agree with anyone who highlighted goalkicking as a it’s a major obstacle for Atkinson though.

58 is a lot more than I thought (can you share where you get stats?)- but most of those are surely in early days at wasps when he was very young and then in the prem cup? He can’t have started many at 10 for Leicester and has barely played 10 for Gloucs.

My hope is that Gloucs stick with him at 10 long term or even better than he goes to Newcastle and plays 10 every week. I think he’ll really blossom then. Look at Searle and how he has developed.

[Which Tyler]

https://all.rugby/player/charlie-atkinson

I simply can't agree that he's shown more in attack than Benson or Worsley - per match, that is (obviously, he has a much greater body of work)

[Puja]

58 is a lot more than I thought (can you share where you get stats?)- but most of those are surely in early days at wasps when he was very young and then in the prem cup? He can’t have started many at 10 for Leicester and has barely played 10 for Gloucs.

My hope is that Gloucs stick with him at 10 long term or even better than he goes to Newcastle and plays 10 every week. I think he’ll really blossom then. Look at Searle and how he has developed.

He was Gloucester's starting 10 for the last 9-10 games of 23/24 and did well to start with, but then presided over their slump that took them out of the playoff positions and down into lower table again. He then struggled to get past Barton in 24/25 and has only got past Byrne in 25/26 because of extreme shitness on Byrne's part. Following on from his failing to get ahead of Shillcock for Leicester and I'm not convinced moving to Newcastle to compete with Zack Henry would be a wise career move!

If he cannot convince a Prem club that he's a regular starting fly-half, I am dubious of his England credentials there. I'm hoping he stays at fullback personally, cause he looked really impressive there for Glaws this season.

Puja

[FKAS]

I never quite get the apathy for Atkinson. He’s just turned 24 and I reckon he’s probably started less than 30 games at 10 in his career. He’s always looked very good whenever he’s played there for me and gone particularly well for England A at 10. I think this season he’s made a big step up and looked good at full back too.

His main weaknesses are his game control and goalkicking.

First one comes primiarly with time in the seat which he’ll hopefully get now Skivington has realised Ross Byrne is dreadful.


Second one is definitely a concern and not going to be helped by Barton kicking goals at Gloucs. Maybe when Redshaw is fit, they’ll bite the bullet and have Atkinson kick goals.

Redshaw might end up playing on the wing due to the injuries they've got there. Barton is a good fullback. Atkinson's inability to do the things that are expected of an international 10 really doesn't help his cause. Given his speed and ability in space it would have been best for Atkinson if Byrne had worked out and he'd transferred to 15.

[Oakboy]

Is this game on that horrendous PremierSport station? Does it clash with the under-20s?

[Puja]

Is this game on that horrendous PremierSport station? Does it clash with the under-20s?

Truly the Mark Mapletoft of sports broadcasters.

Puja

[FKAS]

Is this game on that horrendous PremierSport station? Does it clash with the under-20s?

Truly the Mark Mapletoft of sports broadcasters.

Puja

[Slater582]

In regards the fly-half discussion, hopefully once Ollie Davies or Linegar progress from U20 level they'll be promoted to this squad.

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

Does Rapava-Ruskin fancy representing Georgia at the World Cup next year? Playing in this kind of fixture might prevent that.

[Puja]

In regards the fly-half discussion, hopefully once Ollie Davies or Linegar progress from U20 level they'll be promoted to this squad.

Inexplicably neither Obano or Val R-R involved. And yet we draft in Murley and give run outs to Roots and Dombrandt. I'm not sure i really understand what the thinking is.

Does Rapava-Ruskin fancy representing Georgia at the World Cup next year? Playing in this kind of fixture might prevent that.

I mean, Georgia are quite well known for producing prop forwards. If they've slipped so far that they need to call up our incredibly injury-prone 6th choice loosehead, then they should have him with our blessings!

Puja

[acw303]

May have missed it earlier on the thread but is being televised anywhere?

[Oakboy]

May have missed it earlier on the thread but is being televised anywhere?

This game kicks off at 7.45 and is on Premier Sport. The U20s game kicks off at 7.15 and is on BBC IPlayer.

[acw303]

May have missed it earlier on the thread but is being televised anywhere?

This game kicks off at 7.45 and is on Premier Sport. The U20s game kicks off at 7.15 and is on BBC IPlayer.

thanks for the info

[Captainhaircut]

Actively trying to avoid work and thinking about this A side and our general depth. We have pretty much 4 full teams of players not picked in this A side for a variety of reasons plus those with the under 20s plus BJVR and Sotutu who will qualify soon. Blimey we have some ridiculous depth.

Players with the test side and not selected:
Iyogun, Dan, Sela, Clark, CCS, Fisilau, JVP, Slade, Atkinson, Ojomoh, Daly, Furbank.

Players not fit for selection:
Baxter, Langdon, Jibulu, Stuart, AOF, Richards, Lockett, Carnduff, BCurry, Ilione, Porter, Englefield, FSmith, Lawrence, Joseph, roebuck, Radwan, Donoghue, JBracken, Elliott

Players just not selected for whatever reason:
Obano, Oghre, Street, Isiekwe, Ewels, Burrow, Sodeke, THill, Pearson, Barbeary, Chick, Green, McParland, CBracken, Farrell, Butt, Beard, Sleightholme, Muir, Hodge, TDG.

Players not available for selection:
Sinckler, Ribbans, JHill, Moon, Lawes, JWillis, Ludlam, Mercer, SSimmonds TWillis, Robson, JSimmonds, Anyanwu, Manu, Marchant, Nowell, Shillcock.

[Oakboy]

May have missed it earlier on the thread but is being televised anywhere?

This game kicks off at 7.45 and is on Premier Sport. The U20s game kicks off at 7.15 and is on BBC IPlayer.

thanks for the info

BBC now showing U20s game as 7.45 KO. It's as if neither match matters much for some peculiar reason.