England’s Twickers in a twist!

[Sourdust]

Seriously though; great fun though it was to make the Barbours shit bricks for that last few minutes, we can't let that 2nd half be much consolation. England never really looked like scoring a try, when we look back on this, they were there for the taking.

[Sandydragon]

Seriously though; great fun though it was to make the Barbours shit bricks for that last few minutes, we can't let that 2nd half be much consolation. England never really looked like scoring a try, when we look back on this, they were there for the taking.

That soft try finished the game for us in many ways. I though we could fight back from 12 down but that try was a sucker punch, particularly as Beard was barged by Itoje in that lineout.

The France game will be a better barometer of how poor we are at the moment and I think Ireland will be up for taking on England.

We could still end up 4th, maybe even 3rd if we can put some decent performances together.

[Sandydragon]

Ah well, hope we get a ref who gives us penalties next time, it's pretty hard without that.

This. By the time we got a holding pen in the 76th minute, I'd adjusted so thoroughly that I genuinely wondered what it was for.

Just realised he was the idiot who reffed our game vs Australia in the autumn.

[Sourdust]

Just looked at the England board and apparently WE were getting away with murder at ruck time.

You have to laugh, don't you?

[newgalesurf]

One that got away. Cuthbert played well but sooo damn selfish. One pass and a try was there for the taking

Dodgy shenanigans in that line out for the English try

And probably too late to make a difference but Lawes should have got a yellow for that deliberate knock on. Would love some consistency.

But should have pushed it through hands for the whole game. England struggled to deal with it where Wales had the edge in defense.

Losing BP some consolation I guess

[Son of Mathonwy]

To be fair to him, Cuthbert was pretty good value today, very very busy. What LRZ would have done with those chances we shall never know, but Cuthbert played well.

[Spiffy]

Wales could have nicked that but for their first half sloppy discipline that cost 12 points. England are not that good and posed little danger with ball in hand.

[Son of Mathonwy]

One that got away. Cuthbert played well but sooo damn selfish. One pass and a try was there for the taking

Dodgy shenanigans in that line out for the English try

And probably too late to make a difference but Lawes should have got a yellow for that deliberate knock on. Would love some consistency.

But should have pushed it through hands for the whole game. England struggled to deal with it where Wales had the edge in defense.

Losing BP some consolation I guess

When we did that earlier on, we couldn't get through more than 3 rucks before getting pinged.

[Sourdust]

Losing BP some consolation I guess

Not really, it's only of any use if you win the other 4 games.

Guarantees us fifth place, I suppose...

[Sandydragon]

Losing BP some consolation I guess

Not really, it's only of any use if you win the other 4 games.

Guarantees us fifth place, I suppose...

Yep. We may even do a bit better if we can contain France.

[Sourdust]

But regardless of Welsh failings, it shouldn't escape anyone's notice that we've lost two away games after being penalized all day long, whereas in our one home game in-between, we were - for some strange, elusive reason - better disciplined than our opponents, and won the match as a direct result.

[Sandydragon]

But regardless of Welsh failings, it shouldn't escape anyone's notice that we've lost two away games after being penalized all day long, whereas in our one home game in-between, we were - for some strange, elusive reason - better disciplined than our opponents, and won the match as a direct result.

Karma for last year?

We also scored three tries at Twickenham, and had one disallowed. What is it about the English going to sleep at penalty time?

[Sourdust]

Well, I'm aware I'm playing Mr. Grumpy at the moment, but here are some interesting things to ponder:

1) For the 4th time in 4 visits to Twickenham, we have left with a losing bonus point.

2) For the 4th time in 4 visits to Twickenham, we have won the second half comfortably. (21-9, 3-0, 24-13, 19-11)

3) For the 2nd time in 4 visits to Twickenham, we have outscored England by 3 tries to 1.

Bearing all that in mind, HOW ON EARTH are we 0 from 4? We're doing something, somewhere, very consistently wrong.

[Sandydragon]

Well, I'm aware I'm playing Mr. Grumpy at the moment, but here are some interesting things to ponder:

1) For the 4th time in 4 visits to Twickenham, we have left with a losing bonus point.

2) For the 4th time in 4 visits to Twickenham, we have won the second half comfortably. (21-9, 3-0, 24-13, 19-11)

3) For the 2nd time in 4 visits to Twickenham, we have outscored England by 3 tries to 1.

Bearing all that in mind, HOW ON EARTH are we 0 from 4? We're doing something, somewhere, very consistently wrong.

On each occasion we come off second best in the first half. Even those games where we have won we have come back from behind.

We need to hit the ground running and not let the English pack build up a head of steam.

[Sourdust]

On each occasion we come off second best in the first half.

16-0, 12-3, 20-9, 12-0.

We haven't scored a 1st-half try in the 6N at Twickenham since 2006. That's in 8 attempts.

[Wallpaperman]

Just looked at the England board and apparently WE were getting away with murder at ruck time.

You have to laugh, don't you?

Part and parcel of being a small country. The only time the ref is fair is when he gives every penalty to England. We should know this by now !

[Wallpaperman]

Seriously though; great fun though it was to make the Barbours shit bricks for that last few minutes, we can't let that 2nd half be much consolation. England never really looked like scoring a try, when we look back on this, they were there for the taking.

That soft try finished the game for us in many ways. I though we could fight back from 12 down but that try was a sucker punch, particularly as Beard was barged by Itoje in that lineout.

The France game will be a better barometer of how poor we are at the moment and I think Ireland will be up for taking on England.

We could still end up 4th, maybe even 3rd if we can put some decent performances together.

Agree with this, I didn’t think that England had much to offer, and the try should definitely have been ruled out, disappointing by the TMO.

I’m not too disheartened overall. Between the form of the regions and the injuries it was always going to be a tough ask this year. The injuries to Alun Wyn, Ken Owens and Tipuric may prove timely in the long term as we have now given Lake an opportunity, Rowlands is starting to look very good in the second row and Basham and Morgan look to be 7s for the future.

I think that when everyone is fit and firing I would pick Johnny Williams and North in the centre, with Halaholo on the bench, but Tompkins is playing very well too, now he has been given a run of games.

The scrum went well for the first choice today, and Leon Brown looked ok as an HIA replacement vs Genge, but copped it v Joe Marler. A second scrummaging tight head is still essential imho, and the scrum penalties cost Wales after they came back to 17-12. I wouldn’t go for either Lewis or Brown at present, and would really like to see a fit Willgriff John on the bench.

[Son of Mathonwy]

But regardless of Welsh failings, it shouldn't escape anyone's notice that we've lost two away games after being penalized all day long, whereas in our one home game in-between, we were - for some strange, elusive reason - better disciplined than our opponents, and won the match as a direct result.

The biggest problem with the game is that the ref can intervene at every ruck (the decision being made at high speed) for reasons that are fleeting and often subjective, in ways which have a dramatic effect on the course of the match (eg killing an attack or giving 3 points to one team). IMO this means subtle influences like the reputation of a team, or the vocal support of a home crowd, can push these decisions one way or the other. So we get dramatic changes in 'discipline' from match to match . . .

Unfortunately we're stuck with it till we can get AI refereeing.

[Buggaluggs]

A rampant France is a different proposition to a solid but slightly pedestrian England. That said. We didn't panic today down big, where I thought Scotland did a bit. We worked our way back into the game, and even had a chance to scrag it at the end. Our composure was good. But we will need more than composure against France.

[Sourdust]

But regardless of Welsh failings, it shouldn't escape anyone's notice that we've lost two away games after being penalized all day long, whereas in our one home game in-between, we were - for some strange, elusive reason - better disciplined than our opponents, and won the match as a direct result.

The biggest problem with the game is that the ref can intervene at every ruck (the decision being made at high speed) for reasons that are fleeting and often subjective, in ways which have a dramatic effect on the course of the match (eg killing an attack or giving 3 points to one team). IMO this means subtle influences like the reputation of a team, or the vocal support of a home crowd, can push these decisions one way or the other. So we get dramatic changes in 'discipline' from match to match . . .

Unfortunately we're stuck with it till we can get AI refereeing.

Exactly what I meant by "strange, elusive reason".

We (and other sides) magically switch from being "disciplined" to "indisciplined" from week to week, without any acknowledgement of how the capricious calls of one man, under massive pressure from 75000 baying fans, dictate the flow of the game.

There are simply too many penalties. Penalties decide matches, and they are - in part - unavoidably arbitrary. The more penalties, the more the ref influences the game, the more the contest becomes a judged talent show rather than a sport. "It all evens out" is not an anwser. I don't know what is, but there surely has to be some future in reducing the number of technical infringements, or at least, reducing the sanctions for them? Right now, two coin-toss technical calls can take you from hammering at the opponents' line, to standing under your own posts.

[Spiffy]

A rampant France is a different proposition to a solid but slightly pedestrian England. That said. We didn't panic today down big, where I thought Scotland did a bit. We worked our way back into the game, and even had a chance to scrag it at the end. Our composure was good. But we will need more than composure against France.

I'll probably get crucified for suggesting it here, but I think if Wales want to run the ball, Biggar is not the best FH to get the outside backs moving. He is safe as houses, always gives 100%, will kick his goals etc. but lacks a bit of attacking spark.

[Sourdust]

A rampant France is a different proposition to a solid but slightly pedestrian England. That said. We didn't panic today down big, where I thought Scotland did a bit. We worked our way back into the game, and even had a chance to scrag it at the end. Our composure was good. But we will need more than composure against France.

I'll probably get crucified for suggesting it here, but I think if Wales want to run the ball, Biggar is not the best FH to get the outside backs moving. He is safe as houses, always gives 100%, will kick his goals etc. but lacks a bit of attacking spark.

It's a reasonable argument; but perhaps not the best time to make it, when he's just helmed his team to a 3-1 try count at Twickenham, while the Great White Wundekind was busy banging over goals?

Seriously, at one point in the second half I swear I saw a Wales move where Biggar handled twice. I realize I must have imagined it, but it seemed real...

[Sandydragon]

Some reflections now my blood pressure has returned to normal.

The ref was appalling. Both sides got dubious calls and I don't feel he altered the result so much as the spectacle. Its a tough job and no one gets every decision right but there is a hint here that we have another ref who is hugely swayed by the home crowd given recent events in international and European games. He needs some time to build up experience without the responsibility. Why the TMPO didn't highlight Itoje's very blatant activities in that lineout is beyond me but that's the way it goes sometimes.

Our starting front row scrummaged well enough, but they aren't that mobile. Compared to England and France you don't see them making hard yards so much.

Our lineout is a joke. We can't win games with such a lottery and whilst we did nick a couple of English throws (and we did the same against Scotland) we need to have greater security on our own ball, especially when its a high pressure event and we are putting pressure on or defending our own line.

We need quick attacking ball to function but our breakdown has been iffy again. Part of that we can look to the ref who allowed a lot of white shirts to get into positions they should not have been in, but equally when we get quick ruck ball we can look dangerous. Silly mistakes hamper the attack too often and we need greater accuracy both in the supporting players and in the ball carrier presenting the ball.

Defensively it was a big plus today. We looked well up for the game and frustrated the English attack (admittedly somewhat pedestrian). However how do we get the ball back and retain it against big packs like England. The first half stats weren't pretty. Either we accept that we have to win a half, or at least be close, with only 30% of the ball or we need to get the ball back and look after it better. The tactic of relying on fitness to win in the last 20 is good provided you aren't 17 points behind in the first place.

Many players put their hands up I thought:
Rowlands is looking more and more like an international lock and I think the partnership with Beard has been a real positive of this campaign.
Moriarty was back to being his feisty, abrasive self.
Faletau defied all doubters and had a huge game.
Tomos Williams is our nailed on scrum half. At last.
Biggar has proven that he can actually play attacking rugby.
Our centre partnership was good. I still think there is a place for North and Halaholo in there somewhere.
Cuthbert defied all critics for the most part. It would be nice if he would occasionally pass the ball but he did put in a huge shift.
Williams looked safe and industrious at full back.
Dewi Lake with ball in hand is a massive bonus - just a shame that his throwing needs work.

We scored three good tries and had one disallowed. Sadly we had to absorb too much pressure in the first half and had too big a mountain to climb, particularly when the lineout was a bit flaky and we started to leak scrum penalties later on which let England off the hook. Absolutely not the hammering that many predicted and I think this English team is about to have 2 very hard games which might force some reappraisal in how they are developing. For us, this hasn't been the disaster that the Ireland game seemed to predict. France at home will be a hard game that I don't see us winning, but if we can be competitive with such a developing team then it does bode well for the future. Whilst we may end up in the bottom half of the table this year, it may not be a total disaster.

[normanski]

Some reflections now my blood pressure has returned to normal.

For us, this hasn't been the disaster that the Ireland game seemed to predict. France at home will be a hard game that I don't see us winning, but if we can be competitive with such a developing team then it does bode well for the future. Whilst we may end up in the bottom half of the table this year, it may not be a total disaster.

Good summary of the positives and Wales were dogged to the end in a match we could have, should have won.

This group of mostly newer players are building nicely through adversity for the RWC.

I think we may have a few surprises for France.

[Graigwen]

After a seriously sleep deprived week it was not nice to get home ten minutes before the game and then watch that first half. Many of the penalties given against us were correct, it is a pity that England did not get penalised for the same.

We still give, probably correctly, the impression of being a team under construction. We could have won that game, all we needed was an extra ten minutes. We are not superfit any more, and can't rely on winning games in the final quarter. However, that England team does seem to flag towards the end of games.

Of course it made a huge difference that Faletau was back, he always has cleared up a lot of messy possession and chaos behind our ownn scrums. We have been greatly reduced in effectiveness both by injuries to key players but also purely by bad luck our players suffered more lack of early season games than other countries. In the long run it might prove a blessing in disguise that we have had to vary selection so much. There are still areas of concern - lineouts and centres of course, but there is a sense of progress with new players and Fox is getting back to his old form. Having been doubtful at times about Tomkins I think I begin to see his value, he will never be the most aggressive defender but gets about the pitch a lot and is usually in the right place when others might not have been.

Cuthbert did have a good game, but most be used better, We need to have players closer when he is eventually stopped. It is pointless have a good run end in an oppposition penalty when Cuthbert is isolated and holds on to the ball on the ground.

There has been a lot of pressure on Beard and Rowlands carrying the second row burden, but they have improved as a team.

I thought Anscombe looked sound when he came on.

.