RugbyRebels

LongForgotten wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:54 pm Obviously we don't know how important each individual coach is but seems pretty bad that two highly regarded coaches have quit. Wonder if it's Borthwick or RFU they have issues with. If Borthwick he's costing the RFU a lot in contract buy outs and pay offs!

After the RFU splurged on Borthwick and Sinfield (as well as removing Eddie and his team) the rest have been acquired for nowt as they joined at the end of contracts.

None of Tombletom, Jones or Walters will require paying off though their replacements could well be expensive depending on who the RFU go for.

There are some real questions about what the bloody hell is going on. Borthwick largely had the same coaching team for two and a half years at Tigers. He's not had the same one for six months with England so far.

Given the ABs have just seen Leon MacDonald walk out on the attack role there after all of four tests could they be after Felix Jones if he really does want a top level attack role. Possibly why the RFU are also insistent about him serving his 12 months notice.

Borthwick loyalty to Wigglesworth coming at a cost.

p/d wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:20 pm Borthwick loyalty to Wigglesworth coming at a cost.

Problem with being versatile for Felix Jones. With Sinfield set to go there was a sudden hole to fill and no budget to fill it. Doesn't help Wigglesworth has actually done a fairly decent job as attack coach.

Usually, unhappy = inefficient. Maybe, Borthwick has held things together despite the unrest.

Maybe Borthwick is the cause of the unrest……

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:39 pm Maybe Borthwick is the cause of the unrest……

He is a workaholic, has he adopted his mentor Eddie's tendency to push his coaches to exhaustion?

Then again the RFU management don't have a great record for being friendly and caring.

Unless more deals are leaked we're waiting for someone's autobiography.

I think if you treat staff like shit then you shouldn’t be surprised when they walk.

Well you seem to be making some pretty serious allegations here. What evidence do you have of Borthwick doing that?

I’m not saying you’re wrong (I don’t know if it’s true or not) but that’s a big claim to make with no substantiation.

Aye, come on EP post details (even with caveats if required, "rumours suggest") rather than hinting.

I'm not a convinced Borthwick supporter but, so far, I'd say there is more good than bad - based just on observation. However, did the RFU get him the assistants he wanted/needed? Is he managing with everybody singing from the same hymn-sheet or is he scraping by despite their attitude? It's possible to jump to conclusions either way. I'd be intrigued to hear the inside story.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 5:04 pm I'm not a convinced Borthwick supporter but, so far, I'd say there is more good than bad - based just on observation. However, did the RFU get him the assistants he wanted/needed? Is he managing with everybody singing from the same hymn-sheet or is he scraping by despite their attitude? It's possible to jump to conclusions either way. I'd be intrigued to hear the inside story.

At this point, he's had Sinfield, Harrison, Wigglesworth, Walters all liberated at great expense and he's waited for Jones to arrive, so if he's not got the team he wants, then that strikes me more as his problem than anyone else's.

Puja

Well, there were rumours both before and during the World Cup that how he treats his staff is not aligned to a positive culture. To the point that senior players took him to task on it. Seems that the culture has not improved and if anything got worse, which is why we’re seeing those who can, walk away, whilst those who can’t (lesser paid, lesser roles) will remain. The noises from some close to camp are not good at all!

I feel like you’re still half saying something. Do you have something concrete from these ‘close to camp’ people or is it just ‘noises’ and rumour?

wow. EP. Spill. RR has the right to know, the absolute RIGHT.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 5:37 pm Well, there were rumours both before and during the World Cup that how he treats his staff is not aligned to a positive culture. To the point that senior players took him to task on it. Seems that the culture has not improved and if anything got worse, which is why we’re seeing those who can, walk away, whilst those who can’t (lesser paid, lesser roles) will remain. The noises from some close to camp are not good at all!

Worrying if he's going down the Eddie route of flogging the staff and expecting them to work the mad hours he does. Borthwick being one of the few who could work for Eddie long term without burnout.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 5:12 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 5:04 pm I'm not a convinced Borthwick supporter but, so far, I'd say there is more good than bad - based just on observation. However, did the RFU get him the assistants he wanted/needed? Is he managing with everybody singing from the same hymn-sheet or is he scraping by despite their attitude? It's possible to jump to conclusions either way. I'd be intrigued to hear the inside story.

At this point, he's had Sinfield, Harrison, Wigglesworth, Walters all liberated at great expense and he's waited for Jones to arrive, so if he's not got the team he wants, then that strikes me more as his problem than anyone else's.

Puja

Wigglesworth and Walters were both out of contract at Tigers iirc which is why the left in the summer and not earlier (RFU didn't want to have to pay anymore up front in Jan). Not sure if Harrison was as well but he wouldn't have been expensive even if a payout was required.

It's worrying as it did look like we had a good team that was going to drive us forward. Did Borthwick not take the losses to NZ well?

What a mess.

IBWT

Who is the RFU employee charged with overseeing this situation? It sounds like somebody should be fully in the know with the brief to act. Players cannot be expected to perform at their best individually or collectively if the coaching regime is flawed. It is a matter of weeks for action, surely? If it is Borthwick's fault, dump him now. If not, get on with making other appointments. On the back of Jones's era, this whole thing is disappointing.

Haha. Jesus Christ. Had to check it wasn’t April first. How is it possible to have screwed up this much that we didn’t even know what job it was that he wanted?

Paid through the nose for Sinfield then demoted him for somebody who didn’t want the job? Then built our entire selection and game plan around them? How bad must the communication/strategy be for this to happen?

Things seemed like they were starting to come together, and finally some signs that Wigglesworth might not be completely out of his depth, but it has all crumbled yet again.

Do we start from a blank slate? Try and replicate what we’ve been doing under Jones in defence or start again with a system that allows us Lawrence/Freeman at 13?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:13 am Haha. Jesus Christ. Had to check it wasn’t April first. How is it possible to have screwed up this much that we didn’t even know what job it was that he wanted?

Paid through the nose for Sinfield then demoted him for somebody who didn’t want the job? Then built our entire selection and game plan around them? How bad must the communication/strategy be for this to happen?

Things seemed like they were starting to come together, and finally some signs that Wigglesworth might not be completely out of his depth, but it has all crumbled yet again.

Do we start from a blank slate? Try and replicate what we’ve been doing under Jones in defence or start again with a system that allows us Lawrence/Freeman at 13?

I suppose it depends on how universally approved Jones's defence system is. To get a new defence coach in who is not 100% behind it makes no sense. The RFU's appointment process seems to fail the test time after time. Either way, the team's development must be paused.

Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:15 am Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

What about the process for appointing the other coaches? Any idea how that works? I just wonder if Borthwick's job description specifies such appointments/retentions/departures as his brief. If so, does he get a budget etc.?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:43 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:15 am Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

What about the process for appointing the other coaches? Any idea how that works? I just wonder if Borthwick's job description specifies such appointments/retentions/departures as his brief. If so, does he get a budget etc.?

mad if neither were the case- be amazed if he took the job without those being in his control.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:15 am Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

This. In every sense this.