RugbyRebels

In fairness, it did seem that both teams were playing in the spirit of teams that expected to go further in this event and weren't too bothered about 5th or 6th. They just wanted to play some rugby.

Very true.

Well as a whole that was uninspiring! Too many mediocre leaders in leadership positions across the pathway coaching setup! Redman, the coach mentor didn’t event bother to go to the tournament. Mapletoft is just a yes man and way too conservative for this level! There’s good coaches and damn good players that we will just stifle as we teach them to ignore decision making and follow patterns!

Only watched the highlights but that was enough.
Conceding over 60 pts is a really bad way to finish this tournament.
A few things have gone against us - injuries, suspensions - but this team havent fired consistently and look to have delivered well below their capabilities.

Mapletoft is going to be backed for years and years on the basis of last years win isn’t he?

Very poor Six Nations and World Champs. Sad way for some of these lads to finish up at this level.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:48 pm Well as a whole that was uninspiring! Too many mediocre leaders in leadership positions across the pathway coaching setup! Redman, the coach mentor didn’t event bother to go to the tournament. Mapletoft is just a yes man and way too conservative for this level! There’s good coaches and damn good players that we will just stifle as we teach them to ignore decision making and follow patterns!

I think there will be consequences. This has been sold as a vintage year in the RFU.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 10:47 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:48 pm Well as a whole that was uninspiring! Too many mediocre leaders in leadership positions across the pathway coaching setup! Redman, the coach mentor didn’t event bother to go to the tournament. Mapletoft is just a yes man and way too conservative for this level! There’s good coaches and damn good players that we will just stifle as we teach them to ignore decision making and follow patterns!

I think there will be consequences. This has been sold as a vintage year in the RFU.

It truly is, as is the year coming up too. But Mapletoft is seen as Conor’s man, so could well be someone else who takes a fall.

We are lacking some innovation in coaching at this level. Having been spoilt historically it’s all a bit safe.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 11:59 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 10:47 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:48 pm Well as a whole that was uninspiring! Too many mediocre leaders in leadership positions across the pathway coaching setup! Redman, the coach mentor didn’t event bother to go to the tournament. Mapletoft is just a yes man and way too conservative for this level! There’s good coaches and damn good players that we will just stifle as we teach them to ignore decision making and follow patterns!

I think there will be consequences. This has been sold as a vintage year in the RFU.

It truly is, as is the year coming up too. But Mapletoft is seen as Conor’s man, so could well be someone else who takes a fall.

We are lacking some innovation in coaching at this level. Having been spoilt historically it’s all a bit safe.

I am unfamilar with all the personalities involved in the coaching heirarchy at this level. As a general point, I'd have thought it made sense to buy in the best possible talent for the most important developmental level of all. It is not the sort of position to be occupied by someone who failed at club level, for example.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 3:16 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 11:59 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 10:47 am

I think there will be consequences. This has been sold as a vintage year in the RFU.

It truly is, as is the year coming up too. But Mapletoft is seen as Conor’s man, so could well be someone else who takes a fall.

We are lacking some innovation in coaching at this level. Having been spoilt historically it’s all a bit safe.

I am unfamilar with all the personalities involved in the coaching heirarchy at this level. As a general point, I'd have thought it made sense to buy in the best possible talent for the most important developmental level of all. It is not the sort of position to be occupied by someone who failed at club level, for example.

You say that but I'd bring back Rob Hunter into the role. He had some success with the England under 20s before heading to Exeter.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 10:30 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 3:16 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 11:59 am

It truly is, as is the year coming up too. But Mapletoft is seen as Conor’s man, so could well be someone else who takes a fall.

We are lacking some innovation in coaching at this level. Having been spoilt historically it’s all a bit safe.

I am unfamilar with all the personalities involved in the coaching heirarchy at this level. As a general point, I'd have thought it made sense to buy in the best possible talent for the most important developmental level of all. It is not the sort of position to be occupied by someone who failed at club level, for example.

You say that but I'd bring back Rob Hunter into the role. He had some success with the England under 20s before heading to Exeter.

Fair comment. I don't know enough about him (or the other contenders) to argue. The position justifies appointing the best, whatever the cost. It's that important.

On the topic of prioritising coaching at this level, worth highlighting that Johan Ackermann was brought in to the Baby Boks set-up as a consultant in November last year - and while they didn't win the u20 Rugby Championship, they were clearly the best team in this year's JWC and deserved winners - ending a 12 year drought.

(although never hurts to have athletes such as Pead, Jooste and Williams at your disposal and hard pitches to play them on)

Yeah, it's not an area to skimp on cash. These coaches are there to identify and develop players that are likely to be key to the national team in the future. The national team being the biggest earner for the organisation that hires and pays for these coaches.

At under 20 level you really want some quality coaches polishing the diamonds to assist the step up. The 6N and JWC this year were pretty turgid. There's some real talent on the conveyor belt as well.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jul 22, 2025 11:25 am Yeah, it's not an area to skimp on cash. These coaches are there to identify and develop players that are likely to be key to the national team in the future. The national team being the biggest earner for the organisation that hires and pays for these coaches.

At under 20 level you really want some quality coaches polishing the diamonds to assist the step up. The 6N and JWC this year were pretty turgid. There's some real talent on the conveyor belt as well.

It’s not cash, it’s who they are giving it to. Not sure what Redman does to earn his bucks. There’s a bit of a fixation with ex senior players rather than good coaches;)

England U18 Men’s 2025 International Series squad:

Forwards:

Seva Batikora (Leicester Tigers, Brooksby College, uncapped)
Kwame Bekoe (Leicester Tigers, Norwich School, uncapped)
Charlie Bray (Sale Sharks, Kirkham Grammar School, 2 caps)
AJ Henry (Saracens, Mill Hill, uncapped)
Henry Horsfall (Gloucester Rugby, Kings Worcester, uncapped)
Jordan Ikeh (Sale Sharks, Stockport Grammar, uncapped)
Freddie Jones (Saracens, Sutton Valence School, uncapped)
Henry Laidlow (Harlequins, Trinity School, 4 caps)
Jack Lewis (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys, 2 caps)
Lawrence Ogbonnaya (Sale Sharks, Kirkham Grammar School, uncapped)
Aiden Reid (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys, 1 cap)
Marcus Southwell (Leicester Tigers, Oakham School, uncapped)
Oliver Spencer (Sale Sharks, Grammar School at Leeds, 4 caps)
Casper Wheeler (Bristol Bears, Hartpury College, uncapped)

Backs:

Ollie Batson (Exeter Chiefs, Exeter School, uncapped)
Will Bayston (Sale Sharks, Sedbergh School, uncapped)
Charlie Bosanko (Exeter Chiefs, Ivybridge Community College, uncapped)
Junior Denny (Gloucester Rugby, Bloxham School, 4 caps)
Ajay Edwards (Newcastle Falcons, Durham School, 1 cap)
Sonny Goode (Northampton Saints, Bloxham School, uncapped)
Will Payton (Leicester Tigers, Warwick School, uncapped)
Hugh Shields (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys, 3 caps)
Oscar Talbot (Leicester Tigers, Rugby School, 4 caps)
Charlie Tamani (Northampton Saints, Finborough School, 4 caps)
James Townsend (Leicester Tigers, Warwick School, 3 caps)
Declan Treacey (Bath Rugby, Beechen Cliff School, 4 caps)

Guess Linegar has aged out of the U18s then.
The mystery of neither he nor Davies appearing for the U20s deepens

Treacey's okay, and Tamani is going to enjoy himself if he gets any ball
Spencer, Bray and Talbot are other names I recognise - there's a few others I recognise but can't place

Six Tigers in the squad! Been a while since that's happened, I think?

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 23, 2025 9:41 pm Six Tigers in the squad! Been a while since that's happened, I think?

Puja

We had a pretty good set a couple or so years back with Chessum Jnr, Woodward, Carnduff and J Manz didn't we?

Needed it coming on a pretty sparse class with just Williams graduating from the under 20s this year. There's a few possibles for the under 20s next year Pearson and Kinder are still under 20 eligible next year iirc as is Maka and Marsh might make the step up. Left field chance Threlfall gets a cap as well.

6 in the under 18s is very helpful. Scrum half, flyhalf and fullback in the backs. Not so sure on the forwards but think it's a hooker, tighthead and a lock.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 22, 2025 12:37 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jul 22, 2025 11:25 am Yeah, it's not an area to skimp on cash. These coaches are there to identify and develop players that are likely to be key to the national team in the future. The national team being the biggest earner for the organisation that hires and pays for these coaches.

At under 20 level you really want some quality coaches polishing the diamonds to assist the step up. The 6N and JWC this year were pretty turgid. There's some real talent on the conveyor belt as well.

It’s not cash, it’s who they are giving it to. Not sure what Redman does to earn his bucks. There’s a bit of a fixation with ex senior players rather than good coaches;)

This!!

Oh to have Fletch and the gang back!

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 23, 2025 8:28 pm Guess Linegar has aged out of the U18s then.
The mystery of neither he nor Davies appearing for the U20s deepens

Treacey's okay, and Tamani is going to enjoy himself if he gets any ball
Spencer, Bray and Talbot are other names I recognise - there's a few others I recognise but can't place

Technically he could play but we made the decision a few years back to concentrate the summer series for Lower 6th lads who will be the U18 squad for the new season.

Cheers - I wasn't sure when his birthday is - thought it was after the Jan1 cut off, but never certain

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 10:47 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:48 pm Well as a whole that was uninspiring! Too many mediocre leaders in leadership positions across the pathway coaching setup! Redman, the coach mentor didn’t event bother to go to the tournament. Mapletoft is just a yes man and way too conservative for this level! There’s good coaches and damn good players that we will just stifle as we teach them to ignore decision making and follow patterns!

I think there will be consequences. This has been sold as a vintage year in the RFU.

I recall reading that they were expecting to win JWC this year rather than last.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Jul 11, 2025 9:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 3:03 pm

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 2:58 pm

There’s some very good forwards coming through, like Patrick Hogg and Jonno Balding, but players like Tayo Agbemile who didn’t play this year.

Some stellar backs coming through. Davies has another year and Linegar will battle him for the 10 shirt. Lads like Winters are also super talented.

suspect they will field next years lads mostly in the next match

We've got two matches left and where we finish will have an impact on the type of group we next next year.

Finishing 1 - 3 are top seeds. They'll likely be SA, France and NZ.
4 - 6 next, but position four goes into the group with the team that finishes 3rd.

Best we can finish is 5th, in which case we'd be in a group with the losing finalist.

Isn't this tournament expanding to 16 teams from next year?

Slater582 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 30, 2025 1:22 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 10:47 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:48 pm Well as a whole that was uninspiring! Too many mediocre leaders in leadership positions across the pathway coaching setup! Redman, the coach mentor didn’t event bother to go to the tournament. Mapletoft is just a yes man and way too conservative for this level! There’s good coaches and damn good players that we will just stifle as we teach them to ignore decision making and follow patterns!

I think there will be consequences. This has been sold as a vintage year in the RFU.

I recall reading that they were expecting to win JWC this year rather than last.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Jul 11, 2025 9:11 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 3:03 pm

suspect they will field next years lads mostly in the next match

We've got two matches left and where we finish will have an impact on the type of group we next next year.

Finishing 1 - 3 are top seeds. They'll likely be SA, France and NZ.
4 - 6 next, but position four goes into the group with the team that finishes 3rd.

Best we can finish is 5th, in which case we'd be in a group with the losing finalist.

Isn't this tournament expanding to 16 teams from next year?

Yes it is. My bad.

Mapletoft promoted up into a development pathway role so Titterall goes from forwards to head coach of the under 20s. Kevin Sorrell joins as backs coach, that's one hell of an appointment, he really did help oversee Sarries attack from a dodgy kick chase heavy game plan to some nice smart attack play.

Promoted for failing with the most talented group. But he’s Conor’s mate, so that’s ok. As repercussions go it’s a bit shit!

That said I’m delighted to have Sorrell!

But I’d have still broken the mould and got Fletch and the gang back!

I suspect it's a "promotion" into an admin role away from the coaching side of things.