What next for 24/25?

[Oakboy]

Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

This. In every sense this.

So, how much is he damaged? Losing your coaching team in this way is not exactly competence.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

This. In every sense this.

So, how much is he damaged? Losing your coaching team in this way is not exactly competence.

I think losing key and popular coaching team members is more symptomatic of a wider cultural problem. The environment will work for some. But it does greatly limit your prospective pool. It’s also not going to work for some players in terms of them being the best they can be.

[Puja]

Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

What about the process for appointing the other coaches? Any idea how that works? I just wonder if Borthwick's job description specifies such appointments/retentions/departures as his brief. If so, does he get a budget etc.?

mad if neither were the case- be amazed if he took the job without those being in his control.

Hundred percent. Borthwick is where the buck stops for this - either he *is* in charge or he **should** be in charge and it'd be his failing that he's not.

Frankly, this puts massive pressure on the results in the AIs, as far as I'm concerned. I was willing to give him quite a bit of leeway on the basis of clearly building something, but that's all been torn out by the roots because of something within his area of responsibility, so now I kinda need to see some results to justify IBWT going forwards.

Puja

[twitchy]

I'm obviously bad at reading between the lines. I thought borthwick was meant to be a bit dull/gruff and not the most rousing motivator (hence the need for that in his other coaches), not some sort of nutter like EJ?

[Which Tyler]

Who is the RFU employee charged with overseeing this situation?

Borthwick - it's literally his job description

Borthwick's appointment process seems to fail the test time after time.

FTFY

What about the process for appointing the other coaches? Any idea how that works?

Borthwick chooses the coaches he wants, and tells the RFU to go get them.
RFU will send out feelers to that coach (or his management). Borthwick will then interview the coach, finances will probably be mentioned at this point. Then finally some admin from RFU will negotiate a contract with said coach (and it probably won't get beyond "here's what we're offering, are you interested?"
At best the RFU can say "we don't have the budget for that guy"

So, how much is he damaged? Losing your coaching team in this way is not exactly competence.

Very

[Mikey Brown]

I'm obviously bad at reading between the lines. I thought borthwick was meant to be a bit dull/gruff and not the most rousing motivator (hence the need for that in his other coaches), not some sort of nutter like EJ?

That sounds right, but also meant to be a complete 24/7 workaholic, no?

[Puja]

I'm obviously bad at reading between the lines. I thought borthwick was meant to be a bit dull/gruff and not the most rousing motivator (hence the need for that in his other coaches), not some sort of nutter like EJ?

That sounds right, but also meant to be a complete 24/7 workaholic, no?

It's just very confusing to me. FJones's exit appears linked to Walters going, given his reported comments, but I don't understand Walters leaving - he's worked with Borthwick for years and actively chose to follow him to England. It's clearly not the case that their working styles are incompatible so there must've been some instigating event, and one significant enough that it's caused Walters's mate to walk out in sympathy.

A quick note to show how seriously we're all regarding this - there's not been a hint of the Benadryl Cucumber jokes so far; we've all been calling him by his real name.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Some interesting bits in this:

One takeaway is that Borthwick was reportedly amazed by Jones’ work ethic and clearly very complimentary (at least in public). This doesn’t chime with Jones’ exit being something to do with being flogged.

As @Puja said, it did seem that Walters had a good relationship with Borthwick built over a decent period of time, so they clearly could work together. It suggests to me that there was some sort of bust up we’re not aware of (apart from EP’s mysterious sources).

Also, if the environment is so bad, it seems odd that Strawbridge would opt to sign up to a permanent gig.

[Banquo]

Player feedback is that the camps are seriously stretching and there's not much r and r, and you need to be up for being stretched as it were. Likely the same ethos applies to coaches.

[Oakboy]

Player feedback is that the camps are seriously stretching and there's not much r and r, and you need to be up for being stretched as it were. Likely the same ethos applies to coaches.

Would that be a surprise to players or coaches? Why would any of the latter join and then leave because they don't like it?

Borthwick is not overflowing with charisma. As a person, player or coach he is more about graft than flair. Presumably, what you see is what you get.

[Scrumhead]

Player feedback is that the camps are seriously stretching and there's not much r and r, and you need to be up for being stretched as it were. Likely the same ethos applies to coaches.

Walter’s was surely part of that ‘stretching’ though?

[Banquo]

Player feedback is that the camps are seriously stretching and there's not much r and r, and you need to be up for being stretched as it were. Likely the same ethos applies to coaches.

Would that be a surprise to players or coaches? Why would any of the latter join and then leave because they don't like it?

Borthwick is not overflowing with charisma. As a person, player or coach he is more about graft than flair. Presumably, what you see is what you get.

er because there was no try before you buy option. Many people take on jobs because of their allure and find its a bit different when they get there- and these two are highly regarded, so would have found it easy enough to move on if they didn't want to stay, as evidenced

[Banquo]

Player feedback is that the camps are seriously stretching and there's not much r and r, and you need to be up for being stretched as it were. Likely the same ethos applies to coaches.

Walter’s was surely part of that ‘stretching’ though?

[Scrumhead]

At least someone got it …

[FKAS]

Borthwicks the bloke accountable, he works to Sweeney

What about the process for appointing the other coaches? Any idea how that works? I just wonder if Borthwick's job description specifies such appointments/retentions/departures as his brief. If so, does he get a budget etc.?

There will be a coaching budget, the RFU isn't in the financial position to write a blank cheque for Shouty Ballbuster to recruit his staff. You'd imagine Felix Jones was a significant chunk of that budget, Wigglesworth and Harrison both being pretty junior in terms of experience should be cheaper. Jones is a double world cup winner and will have been paid accordingly.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Player feedback is that the camps are seriously stretching and there's not much r and r, and you need to be up for being stretched as it were. Likely the same ethos applies to coaches.

It’s his treatment of support staff that seems to be the biggest issue. Those who have less choice than to put up with being torn a strip off in public for little to no reason.

He works hard, and expects the same of others, which is ok if crosses boundaries at times; but his treatment and man management of staff is the biggest issue.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Erm….allegedly I guesss

[twitchy]

It does seem odd though. I can't imagine the saffas mince their words or don't put in crazy effort/hours. For it to be an england camp that loses so many coaches is bizarre.

Maybe it's worth the hassle if you have a load of world class players and you win a world cup but not if you are with the england squad. All the pressure but you probably won't win anything.

[Mikey Brown]

Have Ireland got a replacement for Catt already? They must do.

[Mellsblue]

If it’s that Borthwick is tearing into junior staff then a) he’s a bigger idiot than Jones, b) it seems completely against his public persona* and c) the RFU are the biggest idiots for repeating the mistake.

From what I’ve read, the Walters move is mostly due to family reasons and also the opportunity to work in Ireland with the wider remit and greater control that their system allows.


Not doubting you EP, just surprised.

[FKAS]

Have Ireland got a replacement for Catt already? They must do.

They've brought in the Leinster attack coach Andrew Goodman. Mike Catt is rumoured to be considering the Waratahs attack job.

[Scrumhead]

If it’s that Borthwick is tearing into junior staff then a) he’s a bigger idiot than Jones, b) it seems completely against his public persona* and c) the RFU are the biggest idiots for repeating the mistake.

From what I’ve read, the Walters move is mostly due to family reasons and also the opportunity to work in Ireland with the wider remit and greater control that their system allows.


Not doubting you EP, just surprised.

Yep. I feel very much the same.

Something doesn’t quite add up for me.

I’m not a particular fan of Borthwick and I’m willing to believe that he may be the common denominator in all of this. However, when I look at Walters and Jones’ exits, they’re somewhat countered by the fact that Wigglesworth, Sinfield, Harrison and Walters were happy to come with him in the first place and more recently, Strawbridge chose to join on a permanent basis. I can understand he allure of test rugby and (at the time) a RWC, but I’m not sure it would have been all that attractive if Borthwick really is that much of an a-hole.

[Banquo]

If it’s that Borthwick is tearing into junior staff then a) he’s a bigger idiot than Jones, b) it seems completely against his public persona* and c) the RFU are the biggest idiots for repeating the mistake.

From what I’ve read, the Walters move is mostly due to family reasons and also the opportunity to work in Ireland with the wider remit and greater control that their system allows.


Not doubting you EP, just surprised.

Yep. I feel very much the same.

Something doesn’t quite add up for me.

I’m not a particular fan of Borthwick and I’m willing to believe that he may be the common denominator in all of this. However, when I look at Walters and Jones’ exits, they’re somewhat countered by the fact that Wigglesworth, Sinfield, Harrison and Walters were happy to come with him in the first place and more recently, Strawbridge chose to join on a permanent basis. I can understand he allure of test rugby and (at the time) a RWC, but I’m not sure it would have been all that attractive if Borthwick really is that much of an a-hole.

differing stages of career tho for said coaches.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It does seem odd though. I can't imagine the saffas mince their words or don't put in crazy effort/hours. For it to be an england camp that loses so many coaches is bizarre.

Maybe it's worth the hassle if you have a load of world class players and you win a world cup but not if you are with the england squad. All the pressure but you probably won't win anything.

Apparently the Saffers have a very open coaching environment. As much as Rassie comes across as the highest bellend of all; it’s apparently a very safe environment for ideas and voices.

[FKAS]

It does seem odd though. I can't imagine the saffas mince their words or don't put in crazy effort/hours. For it to be an england camp that loses so many coaches is bizarre.

Maybe it's worth the hassle if you have a load of world class players and you win a world cup but not if you are with the england squad. All the pressure but you probably won't win anything.

Apparently the Saffers have a very open coaching environment. As much as Rassie comes across as the highest bellend of all; it’s apparently a very safe environment for ideas and voices.

Makes sense, you don't come up with 7-1 benches, your winger acting as an additional scrum half or double lifting pods for lineout drives if you're scared to voice a new idea.