England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45

[FKAS]

What does Borthwick do? Who knows, but probably switch him back to the bench (and Marcus and Freddie along with him) and we continue as if nothing happened. Except everyone now has slightly less confidence in what they're doing.

I agree that M Smith's performances have been patchy, but so has virtually everything about this team. We've consistently scored 20+ points against a lot of good teams, for a while now, but the defence is equally inconsistent.

Patchy is still harsh. I’d argue he’s been at the heart of most of the good things we’ve done post RWC.

This piece about the yellow card knocking his confidence is absolute invention. He isn’t the flaky maverick some like to make out. As I recall, he made the break that ended with Mitchell’s marginal forward pass at the start of the second half and barely saw the ball after that.

Yes, a 10 should ‘control the game’ but a lot of their ability to do so kind of depends on having the ball … Ford, Fin, Faz, even Wilkinson would have struggled in that second half.

I would love the M-B-M’s back to show who did what when rather than relying on our recollections.

I rate Fin Smith but shifting Marcus to 15 is a shabby way to treat him. Not really sure he can win here? He plays badly and gets criticised when people forget he’s not a 15. He plays well and there’s a higher change he gets stuck there until someone exposes him for not being a 15 and then gets dropped. If Fin has a bad game, I guarantee we’ll hear ‘France is a tough debut start. He needs another go to be sure’, ‘the pack let him down’ etc. The kind of excuses Marcus doesn’t get.

Fair enough. 'Patchy' wasn't meant to be a huge put-down, and I agree most of our positive back play has come through him, but there have been ups and downs - with the occasional moment of desperation or running up blind alleys. That desperation is often because of failures in other areas though. The whole "grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck" thing often feels like a bit of a tired cliche centred largely on a players' mannerisms or body language.

I do wish sometimes he'd be able to sit back and let us run through the phases, but that does require us having the setup and the punch to continually make dents in midfield. The line between "disappearing" from a game and sitting back and letting your big carriers do their thing often seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Without accuracy and good decision making around the breakdown you can't just decide to run a whole load of phases.

His tactical kicking hasn't been good, despite the fact he's an incredibly skillful player. If we don't win the box kick contest we get no territory. At the weekend he left Mitchell control things and they were happy to go to the air early instead of trying to play the phases and probe the attack.

Marcus is the most skillful flyhalf I've seen in an England shirt. He's not close to being the best. The best flyhalfs are constant presences in the game even it's just standing behind the forwards directing them and the scrum half. England look desperate for a leader and Marcus just hasn't been that. He needs to move past having great moments in games to having great games. That's harsh but he's had the run of games, he's got the caps and a side that are running big teams close. If he doesn't want the coaches considering other options then find a way to convert close losses to close wins.

[p/d]

France will score tries. We need to outscore them. To do that we need to improve our attacking opportunities and playing both Smith’s is deemed to be a solution.

Think there is a risk of making too much noise about how France kick

[francoisfou]

Damian Penaud has recovered from his injury sooner than had been anticipated and is expected to be in the starting XV on Saturday.
Midi Olympique say this'll be the side to face England:

15. Ramos ; 14. Penaud, 13. Barassi, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Dupont (cap.) ; 7. Boudehent, 8. Alldritt, 6. Cros ; 5. Meafou, 4. Roumat ; 3. Atonio, 2. Mauvaka, 1. Gros

16. Marchand, 17. Baille, 18. Tatafu ou Colombe, 19. Auradou, 20. Guillard, 21. Jegou, 22. Lucu, 23. Gailleton

Paul Boudehent had been a doubt but retains his 7 shirt so Alexandre Roumat stays in the 2nd row.

There's one change on the bench, Lucu for Le Garrec at scrum half. If Jalibert goes off we can expect Dupont to move to fly half and Lucu to scrum half.

[Which Tyler]

[FKAS]

That's a cracking French side. Damn, this is going to be brutal.

[Mikey Brown]

Tough for that new French 14, but the Bordeux pair are absolutely ridiculous. There can't be anyone in the world better at turning loose play into tries than LBB. One of my favourite players right now.

[Mellsblue]

What does Borthwick do? Who knows, but probably switch him back to the bench (and Marcus and Freddie along with him) and we continue as if nothing happened. Except everyone now has slightly less confidence in what they're doing.

I agree that M Smith's performances have been patchy, but so has virtually everything about this team. We've consistently scored 20+ points against a lot of good teams, for a while now, but the defence is equally inconsistent.

Yeah. If you’re moving/demoting M. Smith for not putting 80mins together then you’ll need a whole raft of changes throughout the team.
My guess is that Steward isn’t offering enough/what they want in attack and with no Furbank the coaches see M. Smith as the only option. If that is the case, and this is the major evidence against my theory, what is the point of Daly being in the squad.

I don't think it's about Steward not offering enough more about how France choose to kick. As Banquo says above they areire than happy to kick but unlike France who back their aerial capabilities and kick to compete France tend to kick long chase using their quick wingers and then back their defensive line. Return kicks are fine as they'll have playmakers at the back waiting to counter, kicking out for a lineout is a great result for them as they've got a good set piece.

Given the fullback is likely to get time on the ball Marcus makes sense, all his strengths come from having time on the ball and the opportunity to play what's in front of him. Steward's strengths are winning contests in the air and using his physicality to break tackles. Steward was a good (if under used) fit for the Ireland game. Marcus being free to launch counters from deep feels like a good option Vs France.

So it’s not about Steward not offering enough in attack but it is about moving M. Smith there as the 15 will have more time on the ball so he’ll need to offer more in attack.

[Banquo]

That's a cracking French side. Damn, this is going to be brutal.

depends which French side turns up. The absolutely brilliant one, or the really really good one....

If we get Vinnie Jones in to man mark Dupont, we may have a prayer.

Seriously- we have to fly into the them in a controlled way a la Ireland, but for 80 mins.

[Oakboy]

Seriously- we have to fly into the them in a controlled way a la Ireland, but for 80 mins.

Agreed but do the rumoured changes support that view?

[Oakboy]

Damian Penaud has recovered from his injury sooner than had been anticipated and is expected to be in the starting XV on Saturday.
Midi Olympique say this'll be the side to face England:

15. Ramos ; 14. Penaud, 13. Barassi, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Dupont (cap.) ; 7. Boudehent, 8. Alldritt, 6. Cros ; 5. Meafou, 4. Roumat ; 3. Atonio, 2. Mauvaka, 1. Gros

16. Marchand, 17. Baille, 18. Tatafu ou Colombe, 19. Auradou, 20. Guillard, 21. Jegou, 22. Lucu, 23. Gailleton

Paul Boudehent had been a doubt but retains his 7 shirt so Alexandre Roumat stays in the 2nd row.

There's one change on the bench, Lucu for Le Garrec at scrum half. If Jalibert goes off we can expect Dupont to move to fly half and Lucu to scrum half.

Is that the officially announced team? If so, based on the Tuesday release of the team v Ireland, what's to be gained from SB delaying our team now?

[FKAS]

Yeah. If you’re moving/demoting M. Smith for not putting 80mins together then you’ll need a whole raft of changes throughout the team.
My guess is that Steward isn’t offering enough/what they want in attack and with no Furbank the coaches see M. Smith as the only option. If that is the case, and this is the major evidence against my theory, what is the point of Daly being in the squad.

I don't think it's about Steward not offering enough more about how France choose to kick. As Banquo says above they areire than happy to kick but unlike France who back their aerial capabilities and kick to compete France tend to kick long chase using their quick wingers and then back their defensive line. Return kicks are fine as they'll have playmakers at the back waiting to counter, kicking out for a lineout is a great result for them as they've got a good set piece.

Given the fullback is likely to get time on the ball Marcus makes sense, all his strengths come from having time on the ball and the opportunity to play what's in front of him. Steward's strengths are winning contests in the air and using his physicality to break tackles. Steward was a good (if under used) fit for the Ireland game. Marcus being free to launch counters from deep feels like a good option Vs France.

So it’s not about Steward not offering enough in attack but it is about moving M. Smith there as the 15 will have more time on the ball so he’ll need to offer more in attack.

sort of.

Steward did the job Vs Ireland but different job on for the French game.

[FKAS]

Damian Penaud has recovered from his injury sooner than had been anticipated and is expected to be in the starting XV on Saturday.
Midi Olympique say this'll be the side to face England:

15. Ramos ; 14. Penaud, 13. Barassi, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Dupont (cap.) ; 7. Boudehent, 8. Alldritt, 6. Cros ; 5. Meafou, 4. Roumat ; 3. Atonio, 2. Mauvaka, 1. Gros

16. Marchand, 17. Baille, 18. Tatafu ou Colombe, 19. Auradou, 20. Guillard, 21. Jegou, 22. Lucu, 23. Gailleton

Paul Boudehent had been a doubt but retains his 7 shirt so Alexandre Roumat stays in the 2nd row.

There's one change on the bench, Lucu for Le Garrec at scrum half. If Jalibert goes off we can expect Dupont to move to fly half and Lucu to scrum half.

Is that the officially announced team? If so, based on the Tuesday release of the team v Ireland, what's to be gained from SB delaying our team now?

Fitness test for TCurry?

[francoisfou]

Damian Penaud has recovered from his injury sooner than had been anticipated and is expected to be in the starting XV on Saturday.
Midi Olympique say this'll be the side to face England:

15. Ramos ; 14. Penaud, 13. Barassi, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Dupont (cap.) ; 7. Boudehent, 8. Alldritt, 6. Cros ; 5. Meafou, 4. Roumat ; 3. Atonio, 2. Mauvaka, 1. Gros

16. Marchand, 17. Baille, 18. Tatafu ou Colombe, 19. Auradou, 20. Guillard, 21. Jegou, 22. Lucu, 23. Gailleton

Paul Boudehent had been a doubt but retains his 7 shirt so Alexandre Roumat stays in the 2nd row.

There's one change on the bench, Lucu for Le Garrec at scrum half. If Jalibert goes off we can expect Dupont to move to fly half and Lucu to scrum half.

Is that the officially announced team? If so, based on the Tuesday release of the team v Ireland, what's to be gained from SB delaying our team now?

No, unofficial.

[Mikey Brown]

I really don't get why it's such a big deal. Teams can get leaked in the press, players might be facing late fitness tests, you might (quite rightly) want to be making the confident early statement "here is our team - try and deal with it." Also the training week before a tournament is going to be structured differently than when they've just played a match on a Saturday.

You can spin it any way you want. Who cares?

[Stom]

Patchy is still harsh. I’d argue he’s been at the heart of most of the good things we’ve done post RWC.

This piece about the yellow card knocking his confidence is absolute invention. He isn’t the flaky maverick some like to make out. As I recall, he made the break that ended with Mitchell’s marginal forward pass at the start of the second half and barely saw the ball after that.

Yes, a 10 should ‘control the game’ but a lot of their ability to do so kind of depends on having the ball … Ford, Fin, Faz, even Wilkinson would have struggled in that second half.

I would love the M-B-M’s back to show who did what when rather than relying on our recollections.

I rate Fin Smith but shifting Marcus to 15 is a shabby way to treat him. Not really sure he can win here? He plays badly and gets criticised when people forget he’s not a 15. He plays well and there’s a higher change he gets stuck there until someone exposes him for not being a 15 and then gets dropped. If Fin has a bad game, I guarantee we’ll hear ‘France is a tough debut start. He needs another go to be sure’, ‘the pack let him down’ etc. The kind of excuses Marcus doesn’t get.

Fair enough. 'Patchy' wasn't meant to be a huge put-down, and I agree most of our positive back play has come through him, but there have been ups and downs - with the occasional moment of desperation or running up blind alleys. That desperation is often because of failures in other areas though. The whole "grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck" thing often feels like a bit of a tired cliche centred largely on a players' mannerisms or body language.

I do wish sometimes he'd be able to sit back and let us run through the phases, but that does require us having the setup and the punch to continually make dents in midfield. The line between "disappearing" from a game and sitting back and letting your big carriers do their thing often seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Without accuracy and good decision making around the breakdown you can't just decide to run a whole load of phases.

His tactical kicking hasn't been good, despite the fact he's an incredibly skillful player. If we don't win the box kick contest we get no territory. At the weekend he left Mitchell control things and they were happy to go to the air early instead of trying to play the phases and probe the attack.

Marcus is the most skillful flyhalf I've seen in an England shirt. He's not close to being the best. The best flyhalfs are constant presences in the game even it's just standing behind the forwards directing them and the scrum half. England look desperate for a leader and Marcus just hasn't been that. He needs to move past having great moments in games to having great games. That's harsh but he's had the run of games, he's got the caps and a side that are running big teams close. If he doesn't want the coaches considering other options then find a way to convert close losses to close wins.

You think that was his decision and not the coaches’?

[p/d]

Yeah. If you’re moving/demoting M. Smith for not putting 80mins together then you’ll need a whole raft of changes throughout the team.
My guess is that Steward isn’t offering enough/what they want in attack and with no Furbank the coaches see M. Smith as the only option. If that is the case, and this is the major evidence against my theory, what is the point of Daly being in the squad.

I don't think it's about Steward not offering enough more about how France choose to kick. As Banquo says above they areire than happy to kick but unlike France who back their aerial capabilities and kick to compete France tend to kick long chase using their quick wingers and then back their defensive line. Return kicks are fine as they'll have playmakers at the back waiting to counter, kicking out for a lineout is a great result for them as they've got a good set piece.

Given the fullback is likely to get time on the ball Marcus makes sense, all his strengths come from having time on the ball and the opportunity to play what's in front of him. Steward's strengths are winning contests in the air and using his physicality to break tackles. Steward was a good (if under used) fit for the Ireland game. Marcus being free to launch counters from deep feels like a good option Vs France.

So it’s not about Steward not offering enough in attack but it is about moving M. Smith there as the 15 will have more time on the ball so he’ll need to offer more in attack.

I assume we submitted a request for France to curtail their kicking to reflect that of Ireland's before rushing into a change at 15?

[FKAS]

Fair enough. 'Patchy' wasn't meant to be a huge put-down, and I agree most of our positive back play has come through him, but there have been ups and downs - with the occasional moment of desperation or running up blind alleys. That desperation is often because of failures in other areas though. The whole "grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck" thing often feels like a bit of a tired cliche centred largely on a players' mannerisms or body language.

I do wish sometimes he'd be able to sit back and let us run through the phases, but that does require us having the setup and the punch to continually make dents in midfield. The line between "disappearing" from a game and sitting back and letting your big carriers do their thing often seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Without accuracy and good decision making around the breakdown you can't just decide to run a whole load of phases.

His tactical kicking hasn't been good, despite the fact he's an incredibly skillful player. If we don't win the box kick contest we get no territory. At the weekend he left Mitchell control things and they were happy to go to the air early instead of trying to play the phases and probe the attack.

Marcus is the most skillful flyhalf I've seen in an England shirt. He's not close to being the best. The best flyhalfs are constant presences in the game even it's just standing behind the forwards directing them and the scrum half. England look desperate for a leader and Marcus just hasn't been that. He needs to move past having great moments in games to having great games. That's harsh but he's had the run of games, he's got the caps and a side that are running big teams close. If he doesn't want the coaches considering other options then find a way to convert close losses to close wins.

You think that was his decision and not the coaches’?

Coaches provide the structure, they aren't on the pitch implementing. Marcus and Spencer went off piste in the Autumn Vs Australia, we know that from comments after the game. There could have been other instances as well. If Marcus had called for the side to go through a couple of extra phases to see if they could get momentum before going to the boot is Borthwick going to bring out the shepherd's crook? Doubt it.

[Mellsblue]

It’s all guesswork but M. Smith definitely lost confidence after his yellow and definitely left Mitchell to it vs France.

Scolding Ballplayers definitely upbraided M. Smith in public after the match vs Aus but he definitely should’ve ignored instructions vs Ireland.

Gotcha.

[FKAS]

It’s all guesswork but M. Smith definitely lost confidence after his yellow and definitely left Mitchell to it vs France.

Scolding Ballplayers definitely upbraided M. Smith in public after the match vs Aus but he definitely should’ve ignored instructions vs Ireland.

Gotcha.

No, Spencer got dropped and other players discussed us going away from the tactics that built the lead and playing loose. Mainly Cole on his podcast with Youngs.

[Galfon]

Happy to see F Smith at 10, Eng need some identity and his controlled style will help the team develop I feel.
If it's Twindaloo & Willis in the b/r, with the bench options the pack should be ok.With the exception of Lawrence who finally seems to have arrived and Freeman, the backs again look mismatched against Fra ( and Sco for that matter. )
Somehow can't see AD not being involved in at least 4 tries on the day.. - just have to admire the guy, unfortunately.

[fivepointer]

Marcus at FB does keep our most inventive attacker in the side and does allow us to consider the merits of Fin at 10. It might be that the arrangement suits both players and, more importantly, enables the team to function better. I'm very interested to see how Fin handles the step up as a starter.

Its worth a punt, surely?

SB cops a lot of flak - some of it quite justifiably - but here he appears to be trying something that does have its attractions.

[Scrumhead]

Fin will bring more players into play, think that is a given. The question will be what those players do with it. Defence and kicking are fine.

As I say, do not see any problem with him at 10.

My problem - as with Willis - this should have been a known factor form the AI not something we are doing 6n v France (playing at home is irrelevant)

Now Smith at fb will be good and bad. I’m just fearful the scales will be tipped in the favour of bad

Is it ‘a given’ though? It’s more of ‘a punt’ IMO.

I’m surprised at the absolute confidence of several posters that Fin comes in and is immediately at home at test level. Maybe he does, but maybe he doesn’t. There’s no body of evidence to give an accurate projection right now.

I’m happy for him to have a chance, but I don’t think this is the game for it and, if you can’t tell, it irritates me that we’re apparently creating the opportunity by making Marcus play 15.

[p/d]

Fin will bring more players into play, think that is a given. The question will be what those players do with it. Defence and kicking are fine.

As I say, do not see any problem with him at 10.

My problem - as with Willis - this should have been a known factor form the AI not something we are doing 6n v France (playing at home is irrelevant)

Now Smith at fb will be good and bad. I’m just fearful the scales will be tipped in the favour of bad

Is it ‘a given’ though? It’s more of ‘a punt’ IMO.

I’m surprised at the absolute confidence of several posters that Fin comes in and is immediately at home at test level. Maybe he does, but maybe he doesn’t. There’s no body of evidence to give an accurate projection right now.

I’m happy for him to have a chance, but I don’t think this is the game for it and, if you can’t tell, it irritates me that we’re apparently creating the opportunity by making Marcus play 15.

Don’t confuse ‘I don’t have a problem with’ for ‘he will take to test match rugby like a duck to water’

I do think his style of play will, but it could be completely ineffective and just be an exercise in shovelling the ball on.

I would have stuck with Marcus at 10 so we can build on last week.

[Oakboy]

Might this be the end for Dingwall? With his club 9/10 starting, if he was ever going to get in against significant opposition, surely this was his time for the 12 shirt.

[Mellsblue]

It’s all guesswork but M. Smith definitely lost confidence after his yellow and definitely left Mitchell to it vs France.

Scolding Ballplayers definitely upbraided M. Smith in public after the match vs Aus but he definitely should’ve ignored instructions vs Ireland.

Gotcha.

No, Spencer got dropped and other players discussed us going away from the tactics that built the lead and playing loose. Mainly Cole on his podcast with Youngs.

I’m not sure where to start.
Are we agreeing that M. Smith was affected by the yellow card he purposely took to stop a certain try or not? Do we know for certain that he let Mitchell take over and it wasn’t orders from Stiflingly Boring, and ones that we’ve seen in numerous (all?) other Eng matches? Do we know that Spencer was dropped for moving away from preordained tactics and despite this we want M. Smith to move away from preordained tactics? Do we know these preordained tactics would’ve beaten Oz as, aside from the smash and grab vs Ire, those preordained have won sweet fa?
There’s so much guesswork being prevented as fact but hey ho.
We’re getting to Farrellesque levels of trope here. Except, whereas Farrell used to singlehandedly drag England to victories due to his consummate mastery of the game, M Smith can’t singlehandedly do it because a yellow card he purposely took for the team caused him to shrink within himself and he was unable to run through the phases.
Fark me. We really need to start winning some games to stop these pointless arguments.