USA v England, Sat 19/07. 10.05pm Rugbypass & RFU YouTube

[Stom]

What would have happened if Marcus had simply refused to play FB?

He'd be out the international picture I'd have thought. Can't imagine that sort of attitude would go down well, also don't think it would be a Marcus thing to do. I'm happy to criticise a couple elements of his game but attitude isn't one of them.

The same weaknesses in his game at 10 have been largely the weaknesses in his game since he first broke through. He's now 26, it's really on him of he can't improve those elements. He's got Ford as a mentor in the squad, he's got Evans as a mentor at Quins and he's got all of the skills required.

I actually quite like him at 15 and generally England have been good at hiding his weaknesses in that position whilst allowing him to show his strengths.

Not sure that's entirely fair. He was a woeful defender, but has become a perfectly adequate, if not better than that, defender at 10. He often had blinkers, and couldn't adapt to play what was in front of him, now he often picks a lot more varied options. He also CAN manage a game, that's just not true considering what he does. Sure, compared to Ford, he can't do crap, but Ford is in a world of his own when it comes to game-management.

The only valid reason - and as Banquo says it's perfectly valid - for not picking Marcus Smith for England, is that he does not suit how you want to play and the playstyles of the other 10s available to you.

It's true. But for all the talk of him not being great at game management, I still think he manages games just as well as Fin Smith, but he's got more to his game outside of that. And he picks himself more often because he CAN make things happen.

I do have one major criticism of him, still, which is that he STILL cannot keep out of a bloody ruck.

[Mikey Brown]

I don't think Marcus has been harshly treated; he's had a lot of starts at 10 which haven' t ended in many wins and involved a stuttering backline (yeah I know, not a great deal with him in midfield and not brilliant up front). Ford and Fin Smith are better at consistently running a backline and a game but don't have his spark or eye for a gap; so it depends what you are trying to do and what other personnel are available. Like it or not, Smith M has functioned best with a big unit outside him, and we don't have one...and also with players who are familiar with the way he plays, which is very different to most 10's....and that's a club thing imo.

One could argue he's been well treated in the sense that he is being given an opportunity to keep playing intl rugby by rolling the dice with him at 15. Though as I said a zillion times, not sure its really doing him a favour long term.

Thats it.

He's an obvious talent but there are other players who might serve the team better.

I sort of agree, but at the same time it hasn’t seemed all that clear what our team is or what it’s trying to do.

So we’ve had this circular debate of whether Smith is dragging us out of trouble with his attacking flair or causing it by forcing the backline to adapt to his game.

I’m hoping at the very least Fin Smith taking the reigns at 10 will allow things to settle a bit more in the positions outside, ideally with someone more threatening than Slade at 13, then hopefully Marcus can drop in more easily.

[jngf]

Did CCS do the whole game at 6? I feel a bit for him, I think he could be immense as a 6 if backed.

When Dommers left he moved to 8. Then when Hill came on, Curry went to 8.

If this doesn’t summon the devil….

I’ve been called worse in my time

[jngf]

A bit harsh. I thought both centres were good whenever they were given an opportunity to play.

Obviously the standard of opposition needs to be taken into account, but credit where credit is due … Ojomoh’s physicality in defence was good to see too. Looks like he would fit the gameplan nicely.

I was underwhelmed by Pepper. After a couple of good cameos, I thought he was going to rip it up, but he was pretty anonymous. In fairness, it can be harder to shine as a flanker in these sort of games, but he suffered in comparison to CCS who was very busy a prominent on both sides of the ball.

I felt CCS had one of this best games to date, Dombrandt is starting to get more comfortable at test level too - In fact pairing them up was a good balance imo. On evidence so far Pepper looks very much to be a work rate/glue type flanker rather than a flair one - more like Robshaw and the Curry twins rather than Earl or Pollack - again nothing wrong with that if the backrow includes some flair/panache elsewhere!

[Banquo]

I don't think Marcus has been harshly treated; he's had a lot of starts at 10 which haven' t ended in many wins and involved a stuttering backline (yeah I know, not a great deal with him in midfield and not brilliant up front). Ford and Fin Smith are better at consistently running a backline and a game but don't have his spark or eye for a gap; so it depends what you are trying to do and what other personnel are available. Like it or not, Smith M has functioned best with a big unit outside him, and we don't have one...and also with players who are familiar with the way he plays, which is very different to most 10's....and that's a club thing imo.

One could argue he's been well treated in the sense that he is being given an opportunity to keep playing intl rugby by rolling the dice with him at 15. Though as I said a zillion times, not sure its really doing him a favour long term.

Thats it.

He's an obvious talent but there are other players who might serve the team better.

I sort of agree, but at the same time it hasn’t seemed all that clear what our team is or what it’s trying to do.

So we’ve had this circular debate of whether Smith is dragging us out of trouble with his attacking flair or causing it by forcing the backline to adapt to his game.

I’m hoping at the very least Fin Smith taking the reigns at 10 will allow things to settle a bit more in the positions outside, ideally with someone more threatening than Slade at 13, then hopefully Marcus can drop in more easily.

Also fair, but I’d say we have now got some sort of attacking shape in mind. And that’s why Fin has looked good.., chicken v egg. What I still think is that Marcus playing the game he likes is a difficult gig for those outside him without the familiarity with the style and the cues.

[Banquo]

When Dommers left he moved to 8. Then when Hill came on, Curry went to 8.

If this doesn’t summon the devil….

I’ve been called worse in my time

[Banquo]

A bit harsh. I thought both centres were good whenever they were given an opportunity to play.

Obviously the standard of opposition needs to be taken into account, but credit where credit is due … Ojomoh’s physicality in defence was good to see too. Looks like he would fit the gameplan nicely.

I was underwhelmed by Pepper. After a couple of good cameos, I thought he was going to rip it up, but he was pretty anonymous. In fairness, it can be harder to shine as a flanker in these sort of games, but he suffered in comparison to CCS who was very busy a prominent on both sides of the ball.

I felt CCS had one of this best games to date, Dombrandt is starting to get more comfortable at test level too - In fact pairing them up was a good balance imo. On evidence so far Pepper looks very much to be a work rate/glue type flanker rather than a flair one - more like Robshaw and the Curry twins rather than Earl or Pollack - again nothing wrong with that if the backrow includes some flair/panache elsewhere!

Pepper looked quick and excellent as a link player with a bit of flair in previous games on tour- he was the standout off the bench I thought.
Trouble is that this game doesn’t really tell us much.

[Which Tyler]

He'd be out the international picture I'd have thought. Can't imagine that sort of attitude would go down well, also don't think it would be a Marcus thing to do. I'm happy to criticise a couple elements of his game but attitude isn't one of them.

The same weaknesses in his game at 10 have been largely the weaknesses in his game since he first broke through. He's now 26, it's really on him of he can't improve those elements. He's got Ford as a mentor in the squad, he's got Evans as a mentor at Quins and he's got all of the skills required.

I actually quite like him at 15 and generally England have been good at hiding his weaknesses in that position whilst allowing him to show his strengths.

I don't think Marcus has been harshly treated; he's had a lot of starts at 10 which haven' t ended in many wins and involved a stuttering backline (yeah I know, not a great deal with him in midfield and not brilliant up front). Ford and Fin Smith are better at consistently running a backline and a game but don't have his spark or eye for a gap; so it depends what you are trying to do and what other personnel are available. Like it or not, Smith M has functioned best with a big unit outside him, and we don't have one...and also with players who are familiar with the way he plays, which is very different to most 10's....and that's a club thing imo.

One could argue he's been well treated in the sense that he is being given an opportunity to keep playing intl rugby by rolling the dice with him at 15. Though as I said a zillion times, not sure its really doing him a favour long term.

[Oakboy]

As has been said often enough, we are lucky to have the three FHs. Starting from here, Fin is 1st choice but I don't think he would be if Marcus had not been buggered about with the 15 shirt. Fin also makes sense if Mitchell, his club-mate, is at 9.

Overall, IMO, Marcus, with the right players around him, offers more in total. He can do things that the other two can't. I think his slightly reduced game management skills (compared with the other two) are nowhere near negative enough to justify not picking him for the positives. He has been mis-managed from the long-term viewpoint. For game after game he WAS our attack despite dross around him. His confidence has taken a battering and he has wasted time in the 15 shirt.

The end result is the team not performing as well because a fully-fit, confident Marcus is NOT the regular 10. It's all marginal and I don't suggest I'd pick the current Marcus ahead of Fin.

[FKAS]

Overall, IMO, Marcus, with the right players around him, offers more in total.

At various times he's had his club 8/9/13 in the same side as him and not really hit the heights. We've been waiting for him to kick on for a while really. What in your opinion is he lacking from the England side that the other flyhalfs are benefitting from? Where would you make changes to give him those "right players"?

[Banquo]

As has been said often enough, we are lucky to have the three FHs. Starting from here, Fin is 1st choice but I don't think he would be if Marcus had not been buggered about with the 15 shirt. Fin also makes sense if Mitchell, his club-mate, is at 9.

Overall, IMO, Marcus, with the right players around him, offers more in total. He can do things that the other two can't. I think his slightly reduced game management skills (compared with the other two) are nowhere near negative enough to justify not picking him for the positives. He has been mis-managed from the long-term viewpoint. For game after game he WAS our attack despite dross around him. His confidence has taken a battering and he has wasted time in the 15 shirt.

The end result is the team not performing as well because a fully-fit, confident Marcus is NOT the regular 10. It's all marginal and I don't suggest I'd pick the current Marcus ahead of Fin.

Marcus was our first choice 10 from June 2024 to Feb 2025, starting 8 games in a row, after the RWC experiment (think he was injured for some of 2024 6N?) and we lost 7 of them; its true that he produced some great individual attacking moments, but the key part of that is....individual. Since he was moved-kindly imo- to 15, we've won 6 in a row, and won games narrowly, that we previously were losing narrowly. Coincidence, causation, correlation, who knows, but its quite compelling. He's had 34 starts out of 46 caps, of which 6 were at 15; so he's had 28 starts at 10, and that's a lot of chances and some good runs at it.
IMO he was thinking about what he can do to make the play, and to make the big play, rather than move defences around. I do agree that 15 for him isn't helping develop his career, and admire him taking one for the team. But given the choice a- we all would and b- he's sort of fortunate to be offered it. I don't believe a fit confident Marcus is necessarily better at 10 than the other options with the rest of the players we have and the developing style.

[R3dders]

What would have happened if Marcus had simply refused to play FB?

He'd be out the international picture I'd have thought. Can't imagine that sort of attitude would go down well, also don't think it would be a Marcus thing to do. I'm happy to criticise a couple elements of his game but attitude isn't one of them.

The same weaknesses in his game at 10 have been largely the weaknesses in his game since he first broke through. He's now 26, it's really on him of he can't improve those elements. He's got Ford as a mentor in the squad, he's got Evans as a mentor at Quins and he's got all of the skills required.

I actually quite like him at 15 and generally England have been good at hiding his weaknesses in that position whilst allowing him to show his strengths.

It's idiotic. 15 exacerbates all of His weaknesses and none of his strengths.

His best game for England at 10 probably came last autumn vs nz, unfortunately ford came on and missed a try-saver, a sitter and a drop-goal. He had the might of ollie Lawrence at 12. He also had a brilliant game vs the aussies the following week, but again ford came on and moved him to 15.

Since then he's been pretty ropey, but hardly played at 10.

[FKAS]

What would have happened if Marcus had simply refused to play FB?

He'd be out the international picture I'd have thought. Can't imagine that sort of attitude would go down well, also don't think it would be a Marcus thing to do. I'm happy to criticise a couple elements of his game but attitude isn't one of them.

The same weaknesses in his game at 10 have been largely the weaknesses in his game since he first broke through. He's now 26, it's really on him of he can't improve those elements. He's got Ford as a mentor in the squad, he's got Evans as a mentor at Quins and he's got all of the skills required.

I actually quite like him at 15 and generally England have been good at hiding his weaknesses in that position whilst allowing him to show his strengths.

It's idiotic. 15 exacerbates all of His weaknesses and none of his strengths.

His best game for England at 10 probably came last autumn vs nz, unfortunately ford came on and missed a try-saver, a sitter and a drop-goal. He had the might of ollie Lawrence at 12. He also had a brilliant game vs the aussies the following week, but again ford came on and moved him to 15.

Since then he's been pretty ropey, but hardly played at 10.

Actually I think one of his biggest strengths is attacking against a broken field which is far more likely in a kicking duel then from phase play at international level. Plus he can go running himself and not have to worry about organising the backline from 15. That's a two strengths enhanced and a weakness removed from him playing at 15.

Wasn't Ford sent on Vs Australia because we shat the bed after a brilliant start? If memory serves we were awesome for the first twenty mins and then just overplayed massively to let the Wallabies back into it. I think Smith paid the price for not sticking the to game plan in that one, a prime example of him overplaying his hand and then letting the game get away from him.

[Which Tyler]

It's idiotic. 15 exacerbates all of His weaknesses and none of his strengths.

This is one of those takes that makes me question whether we're talking about the same player.

Given that his principle weakness is game management (however much Quins fans defend it), and his principle strength is broken-field running - it's really odd to think that FB > FH is thought to expose his lack of game management whilst reducing his opportunities for broken-field running.

[Stom]

It's idiotic. 15 exacerbates all of His weaknesses and none of his strengths.

This is one of those takes that makes me question whether we're talking about the same player.

Given that his principle weakness is game management (however much Quins fans defend it), and his principle strength is broken-field running - it's really odd to think that FB > FH is thought to expose his lack of game management whilst reducing his opportunities for broken-field running.

Actually, I’d say his principal strength is seeing gaps in a defense. He doesn’t always run them himself. And yes, he’s much better at seeing the gaps than creating them.

But I also think there’s a bigger gap in ability to create opportunities between Ford and FSmith than between Fin and Marcus.

[Oakboy]

It's all opinion, but mine is that Russell is far and away the best FH currently. I'd guess (without stats to back it) that his %age of pass/kick/run is about 80/15/5. Marcus is closest to that of our lot perhaps, yet he is perceived as the worst of them at game management. Ford, perceived as the best, kicks the most. Obviously, it's not the whole picture. I don't like the 'game management' expression anyway. Ford is certainly the best at reading the game and taking the sting out of the opposition by kicking tactically. I'd argue he is the one for playing to 'not lose'. Marcus is the one for 'winning'. I am biased for that reason.

[FKAS]

I don't think Marcus has been harshly treated; he's had a lot of starts at 10 which haven' t ended in many wins and involved a stuttering backline (yeah I know, not a great deal with him in midfield and not brilliant up front). Ford and Fin Smith are better at consistently running a backline and a game but don't have his spark or eye for a gap; so it depends what you are trying to do and what other personnel are available. Like it or not, Smith M has functioned best with a big unit outside him, and we don't have one...and also with players who are familiar with the way he plays, which is very different to most 10's....and that's a club thing imo.

One could argue he's been well treated in the sense that he is being given an opportunity to keep playing intl rugby by rolling the dice with him at 15. Though as I said a zillion times, not sure its really doing him a favour long term.

Thats it.

He's an obvious talent but there are other players who might serve the team better.

I sort of agree, but at the same time it hasn’t seemed all that clear what our team is or what it’s trying to do.

So we’ve had this circular debate of whether Smith is dragging us out of trouble with his attacking flair or causing it by forcing the backline to adapt to his game.

I’m hoping at the very least Fin Smith taking the reigns at 10 will allow things to settle a bit more in the positions outside, ideally with someone more threatening than Slade at 13, then hopefully Marcus can drop in more easily.

I think the issue is that it's both and Borthwick moving him to 15 is trying to keep the good bits but minimise the not so good bits.

[FKAS]

It's all opinion, but mine is that Russell is far and away the best FH currently. I'd guess (without stats to back it) that his %age of pass/kick/run is about 80/15/5. Marcus is closest to that of our lot perhaps, yet he is perceived as the worst of them at game management. Ford, perceived as the best, kicks the most. Obviously, it's not the whole picture. I don't like the 'game management' expression anyway. Ford is certainly the best at reading the game and taking the sting out of the opposition by kicking tactically. I'd argue he is the one for playing to 'not lose'. Marcus is the one for 'winning'. I am biased for that reason.

Russell kicks more than you think, he also kicks brilliantly from hand. He's transformed his game over time to have all of the brilliant attacking bits remain but also to bring those tactical, game management bits as well. He's a genuine all rounder. Pretty much the template for Marcus to follow.

[R3dders]

It's idiotic. 15 exacerbates all of His weaknesses and none of his strengths.

This is one of those takes that makes me question whether we're talking about the same player.

Given that his principle weakness is game management (however much Quins fans defend it), and his principle strength is broken-field running - it's really odd to think that FB > FH is thought to expose his lack of game management whilst reducing his opportunities for broken-field running.

Definitely. 'His principal strength is open field running' I'd love to see a single stat which backed that up.

From any one play, Marcus is thinking 'how can I move that defender out of the way to score in 2 phases' time?'

Finn is thinking 'if I take it close to the line, should I pull it back or pass flat?'

Ford is thinking 'where is the space for me to kick into, and why do those 3 guys unmarked on the wing keep shouting at me?'


This idea that Smith plays an unpredictable game at 10 is absolute nonsense. He pretty much sticks to a script unless there is a gap. If there's a gap follow him when he goes through it.

The idea that he just sees gaps that open up rather than actually having created them initially is even more ridiculous. Gaps don't just appear from phase play in test matches.


Smith is tiny, he's not a great defender and he's a candidate for aerial bombs. He can't influence the play from 15, so it's a complete waste of time putting him there.

[Which Tyler]

I've really tried to, but I've yet to see Marcus manipulating a defence for multiple phases time. He's a genius at the phase in play, so long as there's something for someone within 15m for him. But he rarely looks wider than that, and I'm still waiting for more than 1 phase ahead.

TBH I can't agree with your summary on any of the 3.


Which is fine, board would be incredibly dull if we all agreed with each other

[Banquo]

I've really tried to, but I've yet to see Marcus manipulating a defence for multiple phases time. He's a genius at the phase in play, so long as there's something for someone within 15m for him. But he rarely looks wider than that, and I'm still waiting for more than 1 phase ahead.

TBH I can't agree with your summary on any of the 3.


Which is fine, board would be incredibly dull if we all agreed with each other

I agree with all this

[Puja]

The problem that I had with Marcus at 10 was that his running ability is superb and gets him through gaps that FSmith and Ford just couldn't, but he also kept going for gaps that he would get through for Quins, but which slammed abruptly shut on him at top test level. This left us far too often with our general directing the attack being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

I was fervently in favour of the move to 15, because he's got incredible feet in wider channels and I thought that we could get him in those channels more often and use him as a second playmaker who could attack gaps without leaving us denuded of our general. Plus, with three incredible 10s available to us and nothing outstanding at 15, I was in favour of getting our best players onto the park if we could. However, I am coming to the conclusion that you all were correct and that he has too many flaws as a 15 - even though it would be lovely to have his undoubted attacking quality running onto attacking ball, it's not gonna work as a full-time option.

Still, we try things - sometimes they even work. And at least now we know and we also have versatility off the bench if we need it.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Just got around to watching this. I quite enjoyed the spirit of the US actually. Their defence and physicality was more
Impressive than I expected, though we let them off with a few scores. I couldn’t remember the score and was actually quite pleased to see them get on the board at the end. I really felt they deserved something from that.

A pretty solid day overall I think. I’ll admit to skipping past most of the scrum setups/engagements as I was watching on YouTube, so feels unfair to rate the front row in either direction. I thought Clark, CCS, Pepper, Ojomoh, Northmore and Carpenter all had good games.

I’m sure Ford was doing what he could not to have us run ourselves ragged in the heat, but this game didn’t impress like the Arg tests.

Wings got very little ball to attack with except those incredibly shallow crossfield kicks that arrive at the same time as the defender. Murley did well to break free with one of those but I found them a bit frustrating to be honest.

Dombrandt with a couple of good passes and carries, but more of the same I’m afraid. Timing onto the ball, physicality in contact and little handling errors he wouldn’t make at club level continue. Sadly Coles looks a bit similar at international level so far.

Oghre was really bustling around. I know it’s not a top notch opposition but he didn’t look fazed at all. I’d probably written him off as too small, in all honesty, but thought he did well.

IFW a mixed bag, but there were some flashes of that explosive running. Hard to say much about Hill (predictably) or Curry’s run at 8.

[Banquo]

The problem that I had with Marcus at 10 was that his running ability is superb and gets him through gaps that FSmith and Ford just couldn't, but he also kept going for gaps that he would get through for Quins, but which slammed abruptly shut on him at top test level. This left us far too often with our general directing the attack being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

I was fervently in favour of the move to 15, because he's got incredible feet in wider channels and I thought that we could get him in those channels more often and use him as a second playmaker who could attack gaps without leaving us denuded of our general. Plus, with three incredible 10s available to us and nothing outstanding at 15, I was in favour of getting our best players onto the park if we could. However, I am coming to the conclusion that you all were correct and that he has too many flaws as a 15 - even though it would be lovely to have his undoubted attacking quality running onto attacking ball, it's not gonna work as a full-time option.

Still, we try things - sometimes they even work. And at least now we know and we also have versatility off the bench if we need it.

Puja

All this plus he’s very hard to play off as a centre without a lot of familiarity and being used to the visual cues.

[Which Tyler]

The problem that I had with Marcus at 10 was that his running ability is superb and gets him through gaps that FSmith and Ford just couldn't, but he also kept going for gaps that he would get through for Quins, but which slammed abruptly shut on him at top test level. This left us far too often with our general directing the attack being stuck at the bottom of a ruck.

I was fervently in favour of the move to 15, because he's got incredible feet in wider channels and I thought that we could get him in those channels more often and use him as a second playmaker who could attack gaps without leaving us denuded of our general. Plus, with three incredible 10s available to us and nothing outstanding at 15, I was in favour of getting our best players onto the park if we could. However, I am coming to the conclusion that you all were correct and that he has too many flaws as a 15 - even though it would be lovely to have his undoubted attacking quality running onto attacking ball, it's not gonna work as a full-time option.

Still, we try things - sometimes they even work. And at least now we know and we also have versatility off the bench if we need it.

Puja

Yes, and yes (though I presumably think less of his generalship when he is in position).

IMO, the FB experiment was worth trying, but, as ever, needs the player and club to play along to actually get enough game-time in the new position.
I also agree that whilst it suits him on paper, we're not really seeing that on grass (though I stand by the opinion that "give him a full season there for clubs dn country, and he'll come good" - that's just never going to happen.

he’s very hard to play off as a centre without a lot of familiarity and being used to the visual cues.

This too, which is also a criticism of Russell, though one he's adapted his game to make out of date.

I'd also add that Marcus seems to need a specific team set up around him. All FHs like to have a get-out-of-jail-free IC who can carry like a #8 and also step in to 1st receiver when needed, but Marcus seems to need it more than others, whilst also needing an all-action, ball-hamdling #8 and a game-managing SH.
Again,mall FHs will look better with that build, but that doesn't mean it's best for the team, especially if the team doesn't have those options of the requisite class.