Blairites staging a coup...

[Stones of granite]

As one of the few people on the board who is ACTUALLY a Labour Party activist and member, I think the whole thing is largely being misrepresented by the whining, facile Metro-liberals. This is a matter of survival. Labour is teetering on the edge of a precipice and the fucking cretin who dragged us there has done nothing to drag us away and present an image of a vibrant, fighting Labour Party that's ready to assume the reigns of power. The membership numbers are falling again, as I predicted they would, and those who have joined recently do nothing to further the aims of the Labour Party other than whine about Blairites and Red Tories. We can do without a load of spotty youths who think campaigning is posting a meme on Facebook, or engaging in a Twitter storm. So the sooner they fuck off and join whatever new youth revolution catches their fancy, the better. Where the fuck is Occupy anyway?

I thought you were a Lib Dem Hammy?

[Digby]

I doubt many voted leave on the basis they were concerned the EU was a bastion of neoliberalism, indeed I doubt 50% of them could tell you what neoliberalism is, how to spell it and what 50% means. And perhaps I read the wrong articles and listen to the wrong news (mainly Radio 4 for me) but beyond one person on here I'm not sure I've heard the term neoliberalism used much in the last few years, about the EU or anything else.

[Lizard]

How can a party have a leader who doesn't support such an important policy? Or, conversely, how could a party adopt a policy it's own leader didn't support. I would say that the right thing for him to have done was resign, or hold whatever musical chairs operation the UK Labour Party deems fit for a leadership election with remain/leave as an express issue.

He's crapping on about how he got voted in by whatever percent of the party but what percent of labour members voted remain?

[UGagain]

I doubt many voted leave on the basis they were concerned the EU was a bastion of neoliberalism, indeed I doubt 50% of them could tell you what neoliberalism is, how to spell it and what 50% means. And perhaps I read the wrong articles and listen to the wrong news (mainly Radio 4 for me) but beyond one person on here I'm not sure I've heard the term neoliberalism used much in the last few years, about the EU or anything else.

I genuinely laughed out loud at that.

There's nothing honest that I can say in response that wouldn't be considered an insult.

It's too stupid for words.

But you're condescending towards those who didn't vote your way. Astonishing.

[Banquo]

He was obliged to while he remained the leader. That's the rules as far as I can tell.

Difficult but it was what it was.

I don't believe that the Brexit decision is the real impetus behind the coup though.

It is quite absurd to blame JC for the result.

A majority of the British public are opposed to neoliberalism. Getting out of the EU is a precondition for getting rid of the neoliberal curse.

Maybe a lot of British people have thought that one through and the Rugby Rebels intelligentsia haven't.

The Blairites in the "Labour" Party don't seem to have noticed that they, themselves, are electoral poison. They've lost twice and been absolutely creamed in the leadership race.

When do these facts start to sink in?

True, painted into his own corner, but couldn't have made it much clearer that he didn't believe in the party line; tarnishes his created image imo, whatever the circumstances.

Short of resigning, what more could he do?

The principled, logical position from a labour/left perspective cannot be pro-EU.

Do the voters want another actor/charlatan like Blair to sell them to big capital?

I really don't think so.

resign or change the policy.

[bruce]

I doubt many voted leave on the basis they were concerned the EU was a bastion of neoliberalism, indeed I doubt 50% of them could tell you what neoliberalism is, how to spell it and what 50% means. And perhaps I read the wrong articles and listen to the wrong news (mainly Radio 4 for me) but beyond one person on here I'm not sure I've heard the term neoliberalism used much in the last few years, about the EU or anything else.

Ooh dear, perhaps it is reading the wrong articles or listening to the wrong news that has turned you into a condescending tw@t.

[UGagain]

True, painted into his own corner, but couldn't have made it much clearer that he didn't believe in the party line; tarnishes his created image imo, whatever the circumstances.

Short of resigning, what more could he do?

The principled, logical position from a labour/left perspective cannot be pro-EU.

Do the voters want another actor/charlatan like Blair to sell them to big capital?

I really don't think so.

resign or change the policy.

He hasn't had time to change the policy. Resigning would be surrendering to the Blairites.

There's a fair bit of history to consider as well as what the current and future direction of the Labour Party will be.

I don't think it can be seen in such binary terms.

Blair didn't resign over much greater transgressions against established Labour policy. Not to mention law.

[Digby]

True, painted into his own corner, but couldn't have made it much clearer that he didn't believe in the party line; tarnishes his created image imo, whatever the circumstances.

Short of resigning, what more could he do?

The principled, logical position from a labour/left perspective cannot be pro-EU.

Do the voters want another actor/charlatan like Blair to sell them to big capital?

I really don't think so.

resign or change the policy.

Or split the party. Right now they're not finding a way to exist within a broad church, and it's very difficult to see how they can. But whatever there's little value in a captain always seeking to keep a ship in port, at some point you've got to get out on the high seas

[Banquo]

Short of resigning, what more could he do?

The principled, logical position from a labour/left perspective cannot be pro-EU.

Do the voters want another actor/charlatan like Blair to sell them to big capital?

I really don't think so.

resign or change the policy.

He hasn't had time to change the policy. Resigning would be surrendering to the Blairites.

There's a fair bit of history to consider as well as what the current and future direction of the Labour Party will be.

I don't think it can be seen in such binary terms.

Blair didn't resign over much greater transgressions against established Labour policy. Not to mention law.

Blair had no integrity, we all know that. Corbyn claims he has. But we come down to what might be called 'pragmatism'

[Banquo]

Short of resigning, what more could he do?

The principled, logical position from a labour/left perspective cannot be pro-EU.

Do the voters want another actor/charlatan like Blair to sell them to big capital?

I really don't think so.

resign or change the policy.

Or split the party. Right now they're not finding a way to exist within a broad church, and it's very difficult to see how they can. But whatever there's little value in a captain always seeking to keep a ship in port, at some point you've got to get out on the high seas

well quite

[Digby]

Blair had no integrity, we all know that. Corbyn claims he has. But we come down to what might be called 'pragmatism'

I think Blair had integrity in some situations. But when it comes to something as pathetic as not saying he's a catholic until after he's left office you do have to wonder at the lengths they'll go to to not tell us something which may as they see it hamper their career. Though there's always going to be the problem that anyone who wants the job will conflate their career going well as being the same as that which is in the country's best interest.

I can't say I much took to Blair's presidential approach, whether one considers that was just copying Thatcher or otherwise, nor even in light of there being no small number of loons in his party who should be sat on. Other than that I'd say he failed on the House of Lords, on Education, wasted god knows how much time on foxes, and the war, well whatever one thinks of it then much like Brexit they had no idea what they wanted to achieve or how and it's created a right old mess. I'd give Blair the economy was stable, I happen to think there was too much and too accelerated a government spending programme, though I'd grant it came after many years of chronic under investment, even at times intentional under investment to make some ridiculous privatisations easier - clearly there was a lack of regulation of the banks, but I don't recall the opposition jumping up and down demanding increased regs, and clearly Brown shouldn't have been allowed to call borrowing investment just to keep to his golden rules. I'd also give Blair a lot of good things happened in the NHS as a result of their spending increases, perhaps too much wasted spending, but it's better than the current pitiful/disgraceful spend on capital projects, and I'm told NI went well (building on the work of Major) albeit it's not a situation I follow that closely

[Banquo]

Blair had no integrity, we all know that. Corbyn claims he has. But we come down to what might be called 'pragmatism'

I think Blair had integrity in some situations. But when it comes to something as pathetic as not saying he's a catholic until after he's left office you do have to wonder at the lengths they'll go to to not tell us something which may as they see it hamper their career. Though there's always going to be the problem that anyone who wants the job will conflate their career going well as being the same as that which is in the country's best interest.

I can't say I much took to Blair's presidential approach, whether one considers that was just copying Thatcher or otherwise, nor even in light of there being no small number of loons in his party who should be sat on. Other than that I'd say he failed on the House of Lords, on Education, wasted god knows how much time on foxes, and the war, well whatever one thinks of it then much like Brexit they had no idea what they wanted to achieve or how and it's created a right old mess. I'd give Blair the economy was stable, I happen to think there was too much and too accelerated a government spending programme, though I'd grant it came after many years of chronic under investment, even at times intentional under investment to make some ridiculous privatisations easier - clearly there was a lack of regulation of the banks, but I don't recall the opposition jumping up and down demanding increased regs, and clearly Brown shouldn't have been allowed to call borrowing investment just to keep to his golden rules. I'd also give Blair a lot of good things happened in the NHS as a result of their spending increases, perhaps too much wasted spending, but it's better than the current pitiful/disgraceful spend on capital projects, and I'm told NI went well (building on the work of Major) albeit it's not a situation I follow that closely

You either have integrity or you don't, for me. I wasn't referring to his ability as a politician, or to deliver.

[gthedog]

My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies

[Banquo]

My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies

....you raise an interesting point on UKIP. If there is no UK and we are 'Independent', why would they still exist?

[Mellsblue]

My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies

....you raise an interesting point on UKIP. If there is no UK and we are 'Independent', why would they still exist?

Farage's ego. That, or I see a fudge/temporary break on immigration being the end point and those who wanted a full on points system won't be happy.

[Digby]

Farage may start on his gun referendum next, or maybe capital punishment

[jared_7]

My take is Labour still don't get it and they are going to be smashed at the next election with UKIP making massive further gains in Labour heartlands
The party will be people like Hammy who were right on in their day and a bunch of shouty lefty yoofs who are also right on but don't understand what democracy is
I met such a yoof the other month in the boozer. He was delusional in the machinations of how the world and democracy work but ultimately he was boring. Boring in his capacity to understand and boring in his wish to be governed by crazies

The youth are disenfranchised because they feel their lives are screwed, in many ways by generations who like to call them "yoofs" and "delusional about how democracy works" and how they need to just "get a job" and "work hard, like my generation did".

They may not go about it the right way, but they have a right to be aggrieved at housing prices over 10x the average income, student debt and costs of education at levels never seen before, food banks bursting at the seems and on top of that, oh yeah the environment's screwed. All at a time when they get told we are richer than we have ever been.

The problem is they don't feel they have a voice. Jeremy Corbyn was that voice, but all they now see is him being ousted by a bunch of MPs who want more of the status quo they feel is hurting them.

This is not me offering an answer, I don't know what it is. But just as the oldies have copped an unfair amount of criticism over Brexit, the "Yoof" cop a lot of unfair flak for simply wanting change.

[Stones of granite]

I facking hate Laura Kuenssberg. She's the classic example of a cheap journo' that thinks she can 'make' the news as opposed to reporting it.
Wiki doesn't seem to mention it anymore but I seem to remember she's married to a former Conservative mandarin...?.

She's married to James Kelly, a management consultant. I can't find anything linking him to the Conservative party.

[Donny osmond]

It looks like the Conservatives want a successor in by September. Which is a month quicker than originally suggested. Oliver Leoteim has been detailed to investigate Brezit options (better late than never). Meanwhile the only politician who seems to have an idea of what to do next is Sturgeon, and it appears that Jinker is happy to speak to her about an independent Scotland.

Interesting and dangerous times. I wonder what th odds are for an election this year?


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She had a meeting with the big man just this morning. Rajoy has just given a press conference saying Spain stands absolutely against Scotland getting some quick pass into the EU but that might just be sabre rattling on his part.

Sturgeon doesn't really know what to do, but she does know what not to do which is to be perceived as doing nothing. She's as much a hostage to fortune as the rest of us, but it has to be said the SNP seem to be on a long streak of luck so I wouldn't bet against her achieving her goals.

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[Banquo]

It looks like the Conservatives want a successor in by September. Which is a month quicker than originally suggested. Oliver Leoteim has been detailed to investigate Brezit options (better late than never). Meanwhile the only politician who seems to have an idea of what to do next is Sturgeon, and it appears that Jinker is happy to speak to her about an independent Scotland.

Interesting and dangerous times. I wonder what th odds are for an election this year?


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She had a meeting with the big man just this morning. Rajoy has just given a press conference saying Spain stands absolutely against Scotland getting some quick pass into the EU but that might just be sabre rattling on his part.

Sturgeon doesn't really know what to do, but she does know what not to do which is to be perceived as doing nothing. She's as much a hostage to fortune as the rest of us, but it has to be said the SNP seem to be on a long streak of luck so I wouldn't bet against her achieving her goals.

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Turkey might have something to say on the matter. Where is Scotland vs the economic (and other) hurdles? Despite my disappointment over what is occurring, I'd be pretty hacked off if rUK agreed to pay their membership fee

[Donny osmond]

Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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[Donny osmond]

And now Hollande is being quoted on twitter as saying there'll be no separate discussions with Scotland.

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[Banquo]

Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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I guess she needs to know the score before going all out for another referendum; I'm guessing it'd be pretty cold and lonely being outside rUK and Europe?

[Donny osmond]

Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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I guess she needs to know the score before going all out for another referendum; I'm guessing it'd be pretty cold and lonely being outside rUK and Europe?

It would be yes, which is why she'll take her time making a decision. Tbh the mood up here is such that people may just vote for Indy anyway and take our chances... the EU ref may well prove to have been the straw that broke the camels back. The betting would now be odds on for Scottish independence within say 10 years. The only thing that might stop it is if Holland and/or France have EU referenda and get 'the wrong' result.

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[Banquo]

Scotland's economy is well fucked, deficit to debt ratio far worse than Greece's ever was. To get the EU to agree to take us in would eclipse all the tasks of Hercules.

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I guess she needs to know the score before going all out for another referendum; I'm guessing it'd be pretty cold and lonely being outside rUK and Europe?

It would be yes, which is why she'll take her time making a decision. Tbh the mood up here is such that people may just vote for Indy anyway and take our chances... the EU ref may well prove to have been the straw that broke the camels back. The betting would now be odds on for Scottish independence within say 10 years. The only thing that might stop it is if Holland and/or France have EU referenda and get 'the wrong' result.

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Good luck with that!