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Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:59 am
by Timbo
Gloskarlos wrote:Stom wrote:Banquo wrote:
This. And frankly, he wasn’t consistently good even pre leg break; did put in a couple of barnstorming performances prior to the injury it’s true.
Plus he's not the hardest working 8 ever. Billy used to be lazy as feck, when the two were fighting out for the 8 shirt. But then Billy got his act together and has turned into an incredible presence on the deck at ruck time at tackle time...
Morgan...well, I don't think I've ever seen him win a turnover. And I think Eddie wants more rounded players. Morgan is like Tommy Tank. A big powerful guy who can punch holes and does not much else.
Not quite fair, Morgan on his day runs far better and more interesting lines than Billy and has better hands for sure. Agree completely his work rate is far below where it needs to be and he does go missing in games. I actually think Morgan is the more intelligent 8 of the two, but in terms of out and out graft Billy wins hands down.
On the better hands thing, I do think as Billy’s self belief has grown we’ve seen what a good footballer he really is. Often used at 9 by Sarries and England at lineouts and comfortably throws 20-30 metre passes off both hands into midfield.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:03 pm
by Mikey Brown
LOL. Some slight exaggeration there but I take your point. To me, his hands are nothing on Mako's, but neither are most of our forwards'.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:16 pm
by Raggs
BV's hands are pretty good, not sure I've seen anything from Morgan to suggest his are better.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:11 pm
by Banquo
Raggs wrote:BV's hands are pretty good, not sure I've seen anything from Morgan to suggest his are better.
This, again. I’d also add that Billy’s running lines are hardly shabby either. BV when fit is a world class 8 imo
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:33 pm
by jngf
I think an on form Morgan would be a great compromise between the all out direct physicality of Billy and Hughes and the more pacy and athletic and arguably higher work rate approach of say Clifford or Simmonds (not that Hughes is any slouch either mind you!) I would like to see our No.8 being used more as a lineout jumper and (at least) Hughes at 6’5” could be usually deployed in this capacity I would have thought?
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:39 pm
by Raggs
Hughes get's used in the Wasps lineout once or twice a game, a good "surprise" option. Big enough to get high, but also not commonly used so rarely well watched.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:48 pm
by Banquo
jngf wrote:I think an on form Morgan would be a great compromise between the all out direct physicality of Billy and Hughes and the more pacy and athletic and arguably higher work rate approach of say Clifford or Simmonds (not that Hughes is any slouch either mind you!) I would like to see our No.8 being used more as a lineout jumper and (at least) Hughes at 6’5” could be usually deployed in this capacity I would have thought?
why do you need a compromise, when BV is quality? and Hughes is a very different, looser and more athletic player than BV (and Morgan tbh), so think we have the bases covered, frankly, and Morgan really hasn't shown up for 2 years (though you do say on-form, in a leap of faith)
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:23 pm
by bitts
Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
The issue is that we can't build a game plan around him because a) we have noone else like him and b) he's injury prone.
This is why plan B shouldn't just be find a worse version of Billy, it should be finding a way we can play using the strengths of the other guys.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:39 pm
by Banquo
bitts wrote:Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
The issue is that we can't build a game plan around him because a) we have noone else like him and b) he's injury prone.
This is why plan B shouldn't just be find a worse version of Billy, it should be finding a way we can play using the strengths of the other guys.
er bit contradictory, as you are saying we can't have a plan A including Billy
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:40 pm
by Mikey Brown
Including rather than built around, I guess.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:42 pm
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote:Including rather than built around, I guess.
well you then wouldn't need a plan b if he were missing. We have gone into Airplane mode shirley
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:33 pm
by Digby
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:38 pm
by Banquo
Digby wrote:Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:06 pm
by Oakboy
bitts wrote:Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
Miles ahead of Hughes? I'm not so sure. Better, yes. Miles ahead, no. In fact, I'd suggest that Hughes is further ahead of any of the other contenders than Billy is ahead of him.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:07 pm
by Mellsblue
Oakboy wrote:bitts wrote:Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
Miles ahead of Hughes? I'm not so sure. Better, yes. Miles ahead, no. In fact, I'd suggest that Hughes is further ahead of any of the other contenders than Billy is ahead of him.
You do suprise me
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:08 pm
by Banquo
Mellsblue wrote:Oakboy wrote:bitts wrote:Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
Miles ahead of Hughes? I'm not so sure. Better, yes. Miles ahead, no. In fact, I'd suggest that Hughes is further ahead of any of the other contenders than Billy is ahead of him.
You do suprise me
yes, I fell off my chair in amazement too.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:22 pm
by Raggs
Oakboy wrote:bitts wrote:Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
Miles ahead of Hughes? I'm not so sure. Better, yes. Miles ahead, no. In fact, I'd suggest that Hughes is further ahead of any of the other contenders than Billy is ahead of him.
Who are the other contenders? There's Morgan, Waldrom perhaps, and that's it from the big heavy traffic carrier mould. I think Hughes has a very good chance to show us how good he is in this series, but I'd not be so sure that he's that close to BV. We'll find out I guess.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:25 pm
by Oakboy
Banquo wrote:Mellsblue wrote:Oakboy wrote:
Miles ahead of Hughes? I'm not so sure. Better, yes. Miles ahead, no. In fact, I'd suggest that Hughes is further ahead of any of the other contenders than Billy is ahead of him.
You do suprise me
yes, I fell off my chair in amazement too.
You both knew you could count on me!
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:29 pm
by kk67
Dasheragain wrote:Not a bad side at all. Still annoys me that Launch is benched, he's better than both Kruis and Lawes imo, comfortably so in fact.
I don't understand it either.
I can understand Gatland not rating him but for Eddie to be doing the same seems bloody odd.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:31 pm
by Banquo
Raggs wrote:Oakboy wrote:bitts wrote:Billy is up there with the best 8s in the world. Having him in the side is a massive boost. He's miles ahead of Hughes and Morgan.
Miles ahead of Hughes? I'm not so sure. Better, yes. Miles ahead, no. In fact, I'd suggest that Hughes is further ahead of any of the other contenders than Billy is ahead of him.
Who are the other contenders? There's Morgan, Waldrom perhaps, and that's it from the big heavy traffic carrier mould. I think Hughes has a very good chance to show us how good he is in this series, but I'd not be so sure that he's that close to BV. We'll find out I guess.
This, for the 3rd time!
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:51 pm
by Digby
Banquo wrote:
This, for the 3rd time!
We're running out of time
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 pm
by Timbo
I read earlier in the week an interview with Landajo, the Argentine 9, and he name checked Ford and Hughes as the two most impressive England players from the summer tour.
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:09 pm
by Banquo
Digby wrote:Banquo wrote:
This, for the 3rd time!
We're running out of time
That's just what I expected you to do
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:12 pm
by Oakboy
kk67 wrote:Dasheragain wrote:Not a bad side at all. Still annoys me that Launch is benched, he's better than both Kruis and Lawes imo, comfortably so in fact.
I don't understand it either.
I can understand Gatland not rating him but for Eddie to be doing the same seems bloody odd.
Maybe, it's just Eddie letting Borthwick choose his mate, Kruis?
Re: Team for Argentina
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:21 pm
by kk67
Oakboy wrote:
Maybe, it's just Eddie letting Borthwick choose his mate, Kruis?
Could be.
I met Hilly before the previous lions tour squad was announced and he thought Matt Stevens was a better option than Gethin Jenkins.
In the realm of the blind.......etc.
He also told me that Tips was too lightweight.