RugbyRebels

And what has Gatland's game plan actually delivered for Wales, when they play opposition that isn't bottom-of-the-barrel shit?

I could be accused of being a little hard on Gatland. After all we've beaten France 5 times in a row now and never looked like losing this one. Our defence is excellent (except in the last 10 minutes where we'll let anyone score a try).

But we need to be more creative and aggressive in attack, take a few more risks. I know this will lead to more errors and turnovers, but if we don't we'll never beat the best teams. And matches with decent opposition will be a toss of a coin, like Ireland and I suspect our next match with England too.

I think this could largely be done with the same team.... maybe Biggar might struggle with it though. And it would be helpful if one of our centres was creative.... perhaps a new 13 is needed (coz Roberts is titanic at the moment, he can't possibly be changed).

cashead wrote:And what has Gatland's game plan actually delivered for Wales, when they play opposition that isn't bottom-of-the-barrel shit?

Defence: 10/10
Attack: 3/10

Gatland's greatest achievement is that we don't lose to bottom-of-the-barrel shit anymore*. But we rightly aspire to more than this and Gatland can't deliver it. In fact, he doesn't even see that there's a problem.

* except when we dress our A team up as Wales and send then to Japan with McBryde in charge.

cashead wrote:And what has Gatland's game plan actually delivered for Wales, when they play opposition that isn't bottom-of-the-barrel shit?

Beating everyone with some regularity apart from the SH three?

Re our attack, we didn't finish off a number of opportunities we had, we were creative enough to get those opportunities but dropped a bollock or got turned over - lost concentration. At the same time, it's not like anyone was particularly awful. I ponder on whether a couple more tries would have put enough of a sheen on that to make it acceptable.

Gatland is the New Labour of Welsh rugby: He convinced us of the need for pragmatism to establish a platform for progress, but when that was achieved, it turned out that pragmatism was all he was capable of, and all he'd ever wanted.

I'd be waving placards if I thought there was a decent alternative. But I still don't see one.

Billyfish wrote:Re our attack, we didn't finish off a number of opportunities we had, we were creative enough to get those opportunities but dropped a bollock or got turned over - lost concentration. At the same time, it's not like anyone was particularly awful. I ponder on whether a couple more tries would have put enough of a sheen on that to make it acceptable.

We're always going make mistakes, or not get the bounce we need, or whatever. Not every chance will get converted, that's why we need to make more chances.

Another 2 tries would have been great of course. If we could regularly beat France 33 - 10 we'd be better than we currently are.

isn't your defence more down to Edwards rather than Gatland?

oldbackrow wrote:isn't your defence more down to Edwards rather than Gatland?

Yes, and this is probably why we won the 6N in 2013 when Gatland was with the Lions.

I R Geech wrote:Did Jiffy just tell someone to calm down?

The interplay between Mooro and Jiffy was a bit odd throughout the game. They seemed to be getting as frustrated as the players. Eddie Butler was the most coherent of them. He,...had quite a good game.
When Melon arrived he was instantly in on 4/5 tackles over a long series of phases. Eddie was impressed. After that each time Jenkins made another important tackle, Eddie just sighs 'Jenkins again'.

Just one of those frustrating games. Tempting to blame Barnes but having watched the game again (as live, at 4am).... that just doesn't wash. His game management was good, the players were doing their best to stay legal. There's not much doubt in my mind that the majority of the blame goes to France.
Having missed the Fra v Ire game I now understand what Dean Ryan meant when he said 'Ive never before seen such a talented group of individuals play so badly'. Looking back on it,.....they were very fortunate they got Italy at the start of the tournament.

This Wales side looks very assured. Unlike years gone past I'm no longer perpetually convinced they're liable to throw it all away at any given moment. Down side of that is they no longer look likely to let rip at any given moment.

Billyfish wrote:

cashead wrote:And what has Gatland's game plan actually delivered for Wales, when they play opposition that isn't bottom-of-the-barrel shit?

Beating everyone with some regularity apart from the SH three?

Exactly!

we are dull, one-dimensional, umimaginative - & obsessed with kicking ball away regardless of where we are on the pitch or what the situation is - Jon & Gareth Davies being two of the worst culprits

we are creating less & less with each game & do not really look like taking what few chances we do have

incredibly frustrating & boring to watch

cashead wrote:And what has Gatland's game plan actually delivered for Wales, when they play opposition that isn't bottom-of-the-barrel shit?

I wouldn't say the 6N teams are bottom of the barrell shit. Wales are the best of a bad bunch. If we played any of them tomorrow it wouldn't be a push over but I'd expect us to win well. If Wales play like this on tour we'll thrash them at least once.

Len wrote:

Billyfish wrote:

cashead wrote:And what has Gatland's game plan actually delivered for Wales, when they play opposition that isn't bottom-of-the-barrel shit?

Beating everyone with some regularity apart from the SH three?

Exactly!

That's more a reflection on the relative quality between NH and SH. The truth is that Wales have been one of the relatively better teams in a group of not particularly great teams, rather than being in any proximity to the Rugby Championship teams.

"rather than being in any proximity to the Rugby Championship teams"

Pretty stupid comment. Wales are very much in the same proximity as RSA and Aus and better than Argentina. As recent results reflect.

Seriously guys, this french team has been assembled with uncapped players and long time banned ones, they have had three weeks of work together, you can't be surprised about their faults to play as a team..But it will be better as time passes. You can be sure the mood in France is a lot more pleased than the last four years.

As for Wales, well, they have disappointed me, I expected, like many of our compatriots a severe victory from les poireaux, but hadn't it been for a very lucky try the result could well have been similar to the game against Ireland. I think these french rookies have had more opportunities to score in the last 20 minutes than the welsh have had all game.

Your defence has been brilliant though.

tigran wrote:Seriously guys, this french team has been assembled with uncapped players and long time banned ones, they have had three weeks of work together, you can't be surprised about their faults to play as a team..But it will be better as time passes. You can be sure the mood in France is a lot more pleased than the last four years.

As for Wales, well, they have disappointed me, I expected, like many of our compatriots a severe victory from les poireaux, but hadn't it been for a very lucky try the result could well have been similar to the game against Ireland. I think these french rookies have had more opportunities to score in the last 20 minutes than the welsh have had all game.

Your defence has been brilliant though.

France played like a bunch of schoolboys, all following the ball. They were awful really, surprised Noves hasn't been able to at least get some structure.

Buggaluggs wrote:"rather than being in any proximity to the Rugby Championship teams"

Pretty stupid comment. Wales are very much in the same proximity as RSA and Aus and better than Argentina. As recent results reflect.

Not really, think it's one win against the Sanzar teams since 2009? Might be another in there somewhere, but hardly enough to worry them. Not having a pop, just saying being one of the better NH teams in't that big a deal at the moment.

Could be worse, you could come round ours and support Scotland.

Banquo wrote:

tigran wrote:Seriously guys, this french team has been assembled with uncapped players and long time banned ones, they have had three weeks of work together, you can't be surprised about their faults to play as a team..But it will be better as time passes. You can be sure the mood in France is a lot more pleased than the last four years.

As for Wales, well, they have disappointed me, I expected, like many of our compatriots a severe victory from les poireaux, but hadn't it been for a very lucky try the result could well have been similar to the game against Ireland. I think these french rookies have had more opportunities to score in the last 20 minutes than the welsh have had all game.

Your defence has been brilliant though.

France played like a bunch of schoolboys, all following the ball. They were awful really, surprised Noves hasn't been able to at least get some structure.

Maybe he doesn't understand "structure" as you do

tigran wrote:

Banquo wrote:

tigran wrote:Seriously guys, this french team has been assembled with uncapped players and long time banned ones, they have had three weeks of work together, you can't be surprised about their faults to play as a team..But it will be better as time passes. You can be sure the mood in France is a lot more pleased than the last four years.

As for Wales, well, they have disappointed me, I expected, like many of our compatriots a severe victory from les poireaux, but hadn't it been for a very lucky try the result could well have been similar to the game against Ireland. I think these french rookies have had more opportunities to score in the last 20 minutes than the welsh have had all game.

Your defence has been brilliant though.

France played like a bunch of schoolboys, all following the ball. They were awful really, surprised Noves hasn't been able to at least get some structure.

Maybe he doesn't understand "structure" as you do

so you think he had a plan, and they knew what they were doing? They looked pretty clueless with the ball, at least until Trinh-Duc came on.

I R Geech wrote:

Buggaluggs wrote:"rather than being in any proximity to the Rugby Championship teams"

Pretty stupid comment. Wales are very much in the same proximity as RSA and Aus and better than Argentina. As recent results reflect.

Not really, think it's one win against the Sanzar teams since 2009? Might be another in there somewhere, but hardly enough to worry them. Not having a pop, just saying being one of the better NH teams in't that big a deal at the moment.

Could be worse, you could come round ours and support Scotland.

Before Gatland we were getting thrashed every time by the top 3. Now we are getting beaten by Aus and SA in the last few minutes. NZ are still a problem, but they regularly beat the other two anyway.

We need to start getting the odd win every year and to do that we should be sharpening the point. That's something Gats has declared as an objective, a work in progress, if you like. If we haven't done so by the autumn internationals, then I would be inclined to believe it is beyond the scope of the present team and management... particularly our attack coach.

UKHamlet wrote:

I R Geech wrote:

Buggaluggs wrote:"rather than being in any proximity to the Rugby Championship teams"

Pretty stupid comment. Wales are very much in the same proximity as RSA and Aus and better than Argentina. As recent results reflect.

Not really, think it's one win against the Sanzar teams since 2009? Might be another in there somewhere, but hardly enough to worry them. Not having a pop, just saying being one of the better NH teams in't that big a deal at the moment.

Could be worse, you could come round ours and support Scotland.

Before Gatland we were getting thrashed every time by the top 3. Now we are getting beaten by Aus and SA in the last few minutes. NZ are still a problem, but they regularly beat the other two anyway.

We need to start getting the odd win every year and to do that we should be sharpening the point. That's something Gats has declared as an objective, a work in progress, if you like. If we haven't done so by the autumn internationals, then I would be inclined to believe it is beyond the scope of the present team and management... particularly our attack coach.

I pretty much agree with this. Most of our games against SH teams are far tighter than they used to be. But, we need something tweeked in attack. Given the role of the bench in the modern game, I'd go as far as to say that the starting team is fine, it's the provision of game changers on the bench that needs a change to allow for more play makers. Alternatively, we need an alternative to Biggar as our main playmaker, one player can't do it all on their own.

Good scrum, good line out, great defence - controlled the game and won well. Champagne would be nice but satisfaction in team composure and confidence. Ball carrying forward and an elusive OH who ran occasionally would be on my wish list with a few more offloads. But a really good team performance.

Not sure about the good scrum bit - we were penalised a few times for that. Looked like ScrumWang to me, but then I was watching in a pub. North's try was bizarre/embarrassing. Gareth Davies is a really dangerous runner, so why did he kick when he was in space? Lydiate wants shooting for making the same mistake two games running - sorry, Dan, but that's just foolish. Biggar appears to have forgotten how to pass - is that playing to orders?

Our defence won that game, but Gatland called it 'brilliant' straight after. Why can't he see what we all can?

Whilst I don't think England are that great at the moment, they are hardly going to be worried about our visit.

joshfishkins wrote:Whilst I don't think England are that great at the moment, they are hardly going to be worried about our visit.

I think - after what we did the last time we were there - they will rightly be worried. But I see them as marginal favourites. Bit of a throw of the dice the England match - if we keep it together defensively for 80 minutes, we'll win. If we have a few lapses, we'll have no idea how to score the tries we need to win the game.