Can we Slam Les Bleus?

[Son of Mathonwy]

You’re undoubtedly disappointed but at the same time should be proud of your team. Few would have predicted you’d be a gnat’s cock from a Grand Slam.

Well played, so close but you won fair and square. I knew you could win but did not expect it to happen like that!

It does highlight the point about discipline. We have exploited other teams poor discipline and last night it happened to us. Ce la vie.

I’m quite relaxed about it today, now my heart rate is below 150. We did play very well for most of the game. There was a crucial turning point where the LRZ try was disallowed and the ref didn’t look at a penalty try. But then are the rubs. We played well and France put us under a lot of pressure which led to a raft of penalties. I’m annoyed with Liam Williams for his yellow card which was brainless. Otherwise the best two teams went head to head and it was bloody close.

Now we need to wait and see if France can do a number on Scotland and win by 21 or more with a BP.

For me:
We should not have lost it with a 10 point lead and a man advantage with 10 minutes to go.
And then we shouldn't have lost it with a 3 point lead and ball in hand in the last minute of the match.
These are what make it the most painful for me - coz I actually believed it was in the bag at both those points.

Perhaps the large number of subs at 68 minutes was a mistake? Probably never know.

But anyway, I survived the night. Can our brave cousins the Scots give us a hand here? They have the advantage that they can frustrate the French by keeping it tight (even if that's probably not the way they want to play) and force the French to do desperate things. On the negative side, if France start running away with it there's no particular incentive to keep the difference to 20 or less. But it is a pretty tough target. Betfair have us as favourites for the championship, which is probably reasonable. The Scots just need to not collapse.

[Sandydragon]

For the Scots the incentive is lions places. Winning three games is a reasonable return and many of the players will feel in with a shout.

And I think we could have hung on in there if not for the Williams yellow card. Being a player down is manageable but with only 13 players a lot of space is opened up.

[Son of Mathonwy]

For the Scots the incentive is lions places. Winning three games is a reasonable return and many of the players will feel in with a shout.

And I think we could have hung on in there if not for the Williams yellow card. Being a player down is manageable but with only 13 players a lot of space is opened up.

Yeah, I agree the Scots have plenty of incentive to play well and win the match. My point is just that if the match is already well lost, say the French are 16 points ahead with 5 minutes to go, are the Scots really going to kill themselves to keep another try out? Whereas the French will be killing themselves to win the championship.

Liam's card was massive and made worse by its total pointlessness. That time when he got a yellow and South Africa got a match-winning penalty try off it was unfortunate but you can understand why he went for it. This deliberate k-o was simply stupid. (Arguably a bit harsh from the ref to give another yellow for it when nowhere near our 22 though.)

[normanski]

For the Scots the incentive is lions places. Winning three games is a reasonable return and many of the players will feel in with a shout.

And I think we could have hung on in there if not for the Williams yellow card. Being a player down is manageable but with only 13 players a lot of space is opened up.

The Scots hadn’t played for a month when they met Ireland and it showed, particularly their line out.

They had a fine run out yesterday against Italy and can score tries but whether they can stop France from getting the four try bonus is a very big question.

Also we don’t know what last night’s game took out of France, they looked pretty knackered like us at full time.

I’m assuming they will be without Willemse and if Le Roux is also out it will change the dynamics of their pack.

It would be an odd way to win the Championship if Scotland hold them to two or three tries but I’d take that after last night’s disappointment.

[Sandydragon]

For the Scots the incentive is lions places. Winning three games is a reasonable return and many of the players will feel in with a shout.

And I think we could have hung on in there if not for the Williams yellow card. Being a player down is manageable but with only 13 players a lot of space is opened up.

Yeah, I agree the Scots have plenty of incentive to play well and win the match. My point is just that if the match is already well lost, say the French are 16 points ahead with 5 minutes to go, are the Scots really going to kill themselves to keep another try out? Whereas the French will be killing themselves to win the championship.

Liam's card was massive and made worse by its total pointlessness. That time when he got a yellow and South Africa got a match-winning penalty try off it was unfortunate but you can understand why he went for it. This deliberate k-o was simply stupid. (Arguably a bit harsh from the ref to give another yellow for it when nowhere near our 22 though.)

I thought it a bit harsh too. It was a long way from the try line and he had just carded Faletau. I think the ref was trying very hard to avoid any accusation of favouritism yesterday and it was a daft penalty but many refs wouldn’t have carded at that point in that situation.

[tigran]

For the Scots the incentive is lions places. Winning three games is a reasonable return and many of the players will feel in with a shout.

And I think we could have hung on in there if not for the Williams yellow card. Being a player down is manageable but with only 13 players a lot of space is opened up.

Yeah, I agree the Scots have plenty of incentive to play well and win the match. My point is just that if the match is already well lost, say the French are 16 points ahead with 5 minutes to go, are the Scots really going to kill themselves to keep another try out? Whereas the French will be killing themselves to win the championship.

Liam's card was massive and made worse by its total pointlessness. That time when he got a yellow and South Africa got a match-winning penalty try off it was unfortunate but you can understand why he went for it. This deliberate k-o was simply stupid. (Arguably a bit harsh from the ref to give another yellow for it when nowhere near our 22 though.)

I thought it a bit harsh too. It was a long way from the try line and he had just carded Faletau. I think the ref was trying very hard to avoid any accusation of favouritism yesterday and it was a daft penalty but many refs wouldn’t have carded at that point in that situation.

Wales kept on Killing the ball for the last 15 mns, disrupting the play, they could have had a third yellow very easily in the last ten, according to the commentators of the bbc...

[Sourdust]

I thought it a bit harsh too. It was a long way from the try line and he had just carded Faletau. I think the ref was trying very hard to avoid any accusation of favouritism yesterday and it was a daft penalty but many refs wouldn’t have carded at that point in that situation.

Yes... Pearce realistically had to card Faletau, but he had a choice here. From our perective, there's just no need for Sanjay to do what he did, but it's a borderline call and a yellow for that would be harsh at any time let alone here. Johnny Hill didn't get yellow for doing that under the posts, and this was on halfway. Pearce knew the game situation and the effect another yellow would have, and he chose that. He's absolutely within his rights, but it was... unsympathetic.

That, and the stonewall penalty try that would have made things safe, are plenty of ammo if you want to go down the "we wuz robbed" route. But none of them change the fact that we fell to bits when in a position of complete control. That just came out of nowhere, which is why it's so hard to take.

[Wallpaperman]

I thought it a bit harsh too. It was a long way from the try line and he had just carded Faletau. I think the ref was trying very hard to avoid any accusation of favouritism yesterday and it was a daft penalty but many refs wouldn’t have carded at that point in that situation.

Yes... Pearce realistically had to card Faletau, but he had a choice here. From our perective, there's just no need for Sanjay to do what he did, but it's a borderline call and a yellow for that would be harsh at any time let alone here. Johnny Hill didn't get yellow for doing that under the posts, and this was on halfway. Pearce knew the game situation and the effect another yellow would have, and he chose that. He's absolutely within his rights, but it was... unsympathetic.

That, and the stonewall penalty try that would have made things safe, are plenty of ammo if you want to go down the "we wuz robbed" route. But none of them change the fact that we fell to bits when in a position of complete control. That just came out of nowhere, which is why it's so hard to take.

It didn’t feel like a surprise or as particularly unfair at the when he binned Williams, though, and Wyn Jones would have seen yellow about a minute later, if he hadn’t done so to Williams.

The non-penalty try looks like a bad decision today, but at the time all of the focus was on the Rees-Zammit finish. Pearce said to Alun-Wyn that they had looked at whether it should be a penalty try, which is fair enough.

A great prize was lost last night, and Wales should be kicking themselves. All credit to France, too, they were relentless towards the end of the match, and didn’t let their heads drop on the occasions when they knocked on. The substitutions en masse worked against Scotland and England, but backfired last night when cool heads were needed.

[Wallpaperman]

I thought it a bit harsh too. It was a long way from the try line and he had just carded Faletau. I think the ref was trying very hard to avoid any accusation of favouritism yesterday and it was a daft penalty but many refs wouldn’t have carded at that point in that situation.

Yes... Pearce realistically had to card Faletau, but he had a choice here. From our perective, there's just no need for Sanjay to do what he did, but it's a borderline call and a yellow for that would be harsh at any time let alone here. Johnny Hill didn't get yellow for doing that under the posts, and this was on halfway. Pearce knew the game situation and the effect another yellow would have, and he chose that. He's absolutely within his rights, but it was... unsympathetic.

That, and the stonewall penalty try that would have made things safe, are plenty of ammo if you want to go down the "we wuz robbed" route. But none of them change the fact that we fell to bits when in a position of complete control. That just came out of nowhere, which is why it's so hard to take.

It didn’t feel like a surprise or as particularly unfair at the when he binned Williams, though, and Wyn Jones would have seen yellow about a minute later, if he hadn’t done so to Williams.

The non-penalty try looks like a bad decision today, but at the time all of the focus was on the Rees-Zammit finish. Pearce said to Alun-Wyn that they had looked at whether it should be a penalty try, which is fair enough.

A great prize was lost last night, and Wales should be kicking themselves. All credit to France, too, they were relentless towards the end of the match, and didn’t let their heads drop on the occasions when they knocked on. The substitutions en masse worked against Scotland and England, but backfired last night when cool heads were needed.

I’ve looked again at the Liam Williams yellow, after reading Nigel Owens’ comments in the WoL. I thought on Saturday that he had dived forward and knocked the ball out of Dupont’s hands, while off his feet. If correct, that was pretty stupid given the match situation. Looking again, he gets back on to his feet after making a tackle, and grabs Dupont’s ankle after Dupont has picked up the ball. The camera is behind Dupont, and he loses control of the ball, and it wasn’t dislodged by Williams. In fact, it was excellent defending. In making the tackle, though, Williams does make contact with the ball, and it goes to ground. Another one to mull over ! It’s definitely not the mindless rush of blood from Williams that I thought was originally the case. He is penalised for playing the ball while being off his feet, and that was incorrect as the ball had left the tackle area. It should have been a scrum to Wales for Dupont losing control of the ball (a la Rees-Zammit) or a scrum France for a knock on in the tackle, at worst.

Just to say I am not arguing the result for a second, but I did put blame on Williams, who has form for the occasional rush of blood, and he didn’t do anything wrong.

[Sourdust]

I’ve looked again at the Liam Williams yellow, after reading Nigel Owens’ comments in the WoL.

Interesting...

Doesn't change my basic impression that Pearce was gunning for us at that point, and got trigger-happy. It's still our fault for getting him there in the first place with our genuine infringements. Once your discipline is clearly failing, you're going to get dodgy calls against you on top of the fair ones.

[Sandydragon]

I’ve looked again at the Liam Williams yellow, after reading Nigel Owens’ comments in the WoL.

Interesting...

Doesn't change my basic impression that Pearce was gunning for us at that point, and got trigger-happy. It's still our fault for getting him there in the first place with our genuine infringements. Once your discipline is clearly failing, you're going to get dodgy calls against you on top of the fair ones.

Very much this. France were all over us at that stage and we did give away penalties to keep them out. Any 50/50 was going to go against us at that point.

[Wallpaperman]

I’ve looked again at the Liam Williams yellow, after reading Nigel Owens’ comments in the WoL.

Interesting...

Doesn't change my basic impression that Pearce was gunning for us at that point, and got trigger-happy. It's still our fault for getting him there in the first place with our genuine infringements. Once your discipline is clearly failing, you're going to get dodgy calls against you on top of the fair ones.

Very much this. France were all over us at that stage and we did give away penalties to keep them out. Any 50/50 was going to go against us at that point.

Agree with you both. In an ideal world, Wales would have taken a collective breath after the sending off, and played the game out, but France were not going away. Full credit to them, but a little bit of exoneration for Liam Williams

[newgalesurf]

90 secs to go. Needed to play up the jumper rugby for 3 phases more and Cory Hill off his feet.

Sorry still bitter. But fantastic performance nonetheless. C’mon the Jocks

[normanski]

90 secs to go. Needed to play up the jumper rugby for 3 phases more and Cory Hill off his feet.

Sorry still bitter. But fantastic performance nonetheless. C’mon the Jocks

My sentiments exactly.

[Son of Mathonwy]

90 secs to go. Needed to play up the jumper rugby for 3 phases more and Cory Hill off his feet.

Sorry still bitter. But fantastic performance nonetheless. C’mon the Jocks

My sentiments exactly.

I wonder if there's a better technique for playing the clock down. The ref is always looking for an excuse to ping the team that does it (not that I'm complaining about his call on Hill).

Perhaps we'd be better off passing the ball around normally, ie carry on attacking (albeit with no kicks and no risky passes)?

Or is it the best plan and we simply need to execute better?

[Sandydragon]

90 secs to go. Needed to play up the jumper rugby for 3 phases more and Cory Hill off his feet.

Sorry still bitter. But fantastic performance nonetheless. C’mon the Jocks

My sentiments exactly.

I wonder if there's a better technique for playing the clock down. The ref is always looking for an excuse to ping the team that does it (not that I'm complaining about his call on Hill).

Perhaps we'd be better off passing the ball around normally, ie carry on attacking (albeit with no kicks and no risky passes)?

Or is it the best plan and we simply need to execute better?

Supporting players going off their feet happens umpteen times during a game, but sadly in the closing seconds the refs become much more alert to it. Trying to set up a maul is a bit risky if the ball gets trapped and kicking for touch would push the game further away from your try line but surrender possession and initiative.

I’m not sure I can think of a better tactic, we just need to execute it better and stay on our feet. Ireland used to do this for hours so it is possible to sustain it for 90 seconds.

[Digby]

The best answer would be to score another try, the most realistic answer is to grind down the clock like Munster on a boring day.

It would as ever be useful if the previous 79 minutes saw a ref keen to penalise players going off their feet and/or not binding at the ruck, but yeah come the moment just one out carries or pick and go plays all well supported. I'd tend to favour one out plays because you can wind down the clock putting a 9 into position and being slow to clear

[Cameo]

Depends where you are on the pitch too and how long to go. I've seen teams go too early with the one out plays and end up being pushed backwards and feeling under pressure then panicking a bit (when the rest of the match they'd been making easy yards a but wider).

I think Wales had the right plan, they just didn't execute.

[Cameo]

Btw, anyone got any thoughts on Fickou's attempted tap and go that enraged France? I get that Luke Pearce doesn't have to sprint to set the mark but late in games I do sometimes find it a bit infuriating when him and Barnes (and some others) call time off and tell everyone to calm down. When you are trying to come back into a game against a knackered and panicking team, the last thing you want is everyone (apary from your teammates) to calm down.

[francoisfou]

Btw, anyone got any thoughts on Fickou's attempted tap and go that enraged France? I get that Luke Pearce doesn't have to sprint to set the mark but late in games I do sometimes find it a bit infuriating when him and Barnes (and some others) call time off and tell everyone to calm down. When you are trying to come back into a game against a knackered and panicking team, the last thing you want is everyone (apary from your teammates) to calm down.

I wasn't happy, either, but can't remember if Fickou tried to take a quick one behind where the offence took place or in front? If it was behind, than the ref should surely have let the game flow.

[Sandydragon]

Depends where you are on the pitch too and how long to go. I've seen teams go too early with the one out plays and end up being pushed backwards and feeling under pressure then panicking a bit (when the rest of the match they'd been making easy yards a but wider).

I think Wales had the right plan, they just didn't execute.

I think a French player moved backwards causing one of ours to go off their feet momentarily. Canny play or bad luck?

[Sandydragon]

Btw, anyone got any thoughts on Fickou's attempted tap and go that enraged France? I get that Luke Pearce doesn't have to sprint to set the mark but late in games I do sometimes find it a bit infuriating when him and Barnes (and some others) call time off and tell everyone to calm down. When you are trying to come back into a game against a knackered and panicking team, the last thing you want is everyone (apary from your teammates) to calm down.

The ref should be able to ensure that the player is taking the tap on it behind the mark. If he is lagging far behind play then that’s his fault, although most players will grab a yard or two if they can do I get why he whistled. Wales would have been pissed off of Fickou had been in front of the mark but being annoyed at the ref is a fair shout in that circumstance.

[Numbers]

Yes... Pearce realistically had to card Faletau, but he had a choice here. From our perective, there's just no need for Sanjay to do what he did, but it's a borderline call and a yellow for that would be harsh at any time let alone here. Johnny Hill didn't get yellow for doing that under the posts, and this was on halfway. Pearce knew the game situation and the effect another yellow would have, and he chose that. He's absolutely within his rights, but it was... unsympathetic.

That, and the stonewall penalty try that would have made things safe, are plenty of ammo if you want to go down the "we wuz robbed" route. But none of them change the fact that we fell to bits when in a position of complete control. That just came out of nowhere, which is why it's so hard to take.

It didn’t feel like a surprise or as particularly unfair at the when he binned Williams, though, and Wyn Jones would have seen yellow about a minute later, if he hadn’t done so to Williams.

The non-penalty try looks like a bad decision today, but at the time all of the focus was on the Rees-Zammit finish. Pearce said to Alun-Wyn that they had looked at whether it should be a penalty try, which is fair enough.

A great prize was lost last night, and Wales should be kicking themselves. All credit to France, too, they were relentless towards the end of the match, and didn’t let their heads drop on the occasions when they knocked on. The substitutions en masse worked against Scotland and England, but backfired last night when cool heads were needed.

I’ve looked again at the Liam Williams yellow, after reading Nigel Owens’ comments in the WoL. I thought on Saturday that he had dived forward and knocked the ball out of Dupont’s hands, while off his feet. If correct, that was pretty stupid given the match situation. Looking again, he gets back on to his feet after making a tackle, and grabs Dupont’s ankle after Dupont has picked up the ball. The camera is behind Dupont, and he loses control of the ball, and it wasn’t dislodged by Williams. In fact, it was excellent defending. In making the tackle, though, Williams does make contact with the ball, and it goes to ground. Another one to mull over ! It’s definitely not the mindless rush of blood from Williams that I thought was originally the case. He is penalised for playing the ball while being off his feet, and that was incorrect as the ball had left the tackle area. It should have been a scrum to Wales for Dupont losing control of the ball (a la Rees-Zammit) or a scrum France for a knock on in the tackle, at worst.

Just to say I am not arguing the result for a second, but I did put blame on Williams, who has form for the occasional rush of blood, and he didn’t do anything wrong.

When I watched it back it looked like Dupont picked it up then fumbled it and was in the process of regathering it when Williams made contact with him which made it look like Williams was targeting the ball which I don't think was the case, I think he was going for an ankle tackle.

[Mikey Brown]

This thread just keeps on giving.

[Sandydragon]

This thread just keeps on giving.

Bit like the English board at the moment in general then. You came 5th so quiet in the cheap seats.