RugbyRebels

It feels like we aren't questioning SB any more. You can see exactly what he is aiming for with that argentina performance, and all the players have bought in. Well done steve.

(Mutters vaguely about temporary assistant coaches)

Nothing to see here, move along.

Danno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:21 pm (Mutters vaguely about temporary assistant coaches)

Nothing to see here, move along.

Does Borthwick get credit for bringing those in?

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 2:41 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:21 pm (Mutters vaguely about temporary assistant coaches)

Nothing to see here, move along.

Does Borthwick get credit for bringing those in?

I suppose one could argue that the permanent guys now need to raise their game to new standards set. SB's prowess as a manager might come under consideration after the AIs. Depending on results then (or in the next 6N), maybe requirements for changes in his staff will be significant.

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 2:41 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:21 pm (Mutters vaguely about temporary assistant coaches)

Nothing to see here, move along.

Does Borthwick get credit for bringing those in?

This is the internet!

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 2:41 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 12:21 pm (Mutters vaguely about temporary assistant coaches)

Nothing to see here, move along.

Does Borthwick get credit for bringing those in?

It is a well known fact that everything awful is Statto Boringplay's fault, while everything good and exciting is because of some outside influence that has temporarily escaped his iron fist and will soon be crushed back down to mediocrity again. Either that, or because the opposition gave us the game for some reason.

Puja

Yeah. This annoys me too. It’s like when the opposition never gets any credit for scoring - it’s only ever because our defence was crap etc.

In all seriousness, it does appear that Blackett and McGuigan have made a positive impact. In Blackett’s case that’s not hugely surprising considering his pedigree and experience in comparison to Wigglesworth who has barely stopped playing. McGuigan seems to have come out of nowhere with Sale but is clearly a talent.

Credit to Slippery Balloons for bringing them. I can’t imagine we can keep them but I hope we can retain some of their ideas.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 9:24 pm Yeah. This annoys me too. It’s like when the opposition never gets any credit for scoring - it’s only ever because our defence was crap etc.

In all seriousness, it does appear that Blackett and McGuigan have made a positive impact. In Blackett’s case that’s not hugely surprising considering his pedigree and experience in comparison to Wigglesworth who has barely stopped playing. McGuigan seems to have come out of nowhere with Sale but is clearly a talent.

Credit to Slippery Balloons for bringing them. I can’t imagine we can keep them but I hope we can retain some of their ideas.

Blackett's clearly a talent, but I wouldn't necessarily say our backs play has been significantly different than in the 6N (Scotland game apart). Wiggy's another who gets no credit when things go right.

Our defence has been incredible, but obviously hard to tell if that's all McGuigan or just the effects of El Abd going full-time instead of a job-share.

Puja

6 wins from the last 7 games looks nice, but until we get results that aren't 1 point margins that came from a touch of individual brilliance against the better teams I'll start being more forgiving. Right now he's coasting on the fact you can only play what's in front of you. He's still out of his depth.

Danno wrote: ↑Fri Jul 18, 2025 11:59 pm 6 wins from the last 7 games looks nice, but until we get results that aren't 1 point margins that came from a touch of individual brilliance against the better teams I'll start being more forgiving. Right now he's coasting on the fact you can only play what's in front of you. He's still out of his depth.

Didn’t we just beat Argentina by 20 points in their back yard whilst missing 19 players?

Or do you just mean NZ, SA, France and Ireland? Given how tight the games usually are when those teams play each other, it’s quite ambitious to suggest we start comfortably beating them. Did the win against France this year or Ireland last year come from “individual brilliance” by the way? Not sure they did…

I think Borthwick is doing a great job. Since the start of World Cup we’ve lost 6 games. SA semi final, Scotland away, France away, New Zealand home, Australia home and Ireland away.

Scotland away and Australia at home were the only poor performances in there with possibly Scotland justification being that we were implementing a new defence. Australia was poor with possible justification being Curry going off when we were dominating and backrow balance being dreadful thereafter (Borthwick takes blame for poor selection).

In the last 1.5 years, he’s brought through Baxter, CCS, BCurry, Willis, FSmith, Dingwall, Freeman, IFW, Sleightholme and Roebuck whilst getting better performances from the likes of Stuart, Mitchell and Earl.

We’ve won 6 in a row with wins against France and Argentina x 2 in there. We’re bringing through a load of younger players and the style of play is becoming more cohesive and clear with every series of games. I’m not really sure what more people want.

I think because Borthwick is dull in interviews and happy to go to a conservative game plan when he thinks we need it most fans have taken a negative view of him and the performances even though they are mainly pretty good. The loss of key lieutenants also didn't help his PR cause.

The squad now is looking pretty youthful and developing nicely. We've got a decent set of options to mix the game plan up as well. I think he's doing a solid job, nothing out this world but a really solid job that's improving the side without the Eddie style drama.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:02 am I think because Borthwick is dull in interviews and happy to go to a conservative game plan when he thinks we need it most fans have taken a negative view of him and the performances even though they are mainly pretty good. The loss of key lieutenants also didn't help his PR cause.

The squad now is looking pretty youthful and developing nicely. We've got a decent set of options to mix the game plan up as well. I think he's doing a solid job, nothing out this world but a really solid job that's improving the side without the Eddie style drama.

I think thats fair.

He struggled initially but he's finding his feet and doing a very decent job.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:56 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:02 am I think because Borthwick is dull in interviews and happy to go to a conservative game plan when he thinks we need it most fans have taken a negative view of him and the performances even though they are mainly pretty good. The loss of key lieutenants also didn't help his PR cause.

The squad now is looking pretty youthful and developing nicely. We've got a decent set of options to mix the game plan up as well. I think he's doing a solid job, nothing out this world but a really solid job that's improving the side without the Eddie style drama.

a very decent job.

Aye. Tho to be finding your feet 2 years in is quite a luxury

Pretty good, decent job. Bout right. Though I'd say memories are pretty selective depending on your starting point view on Slightly Biased.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:27 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:56 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:02 am I think because Borthwick is dull in interviews and happy to go to a conservative game plan when he thinks we need it most fans have taken a negative view of him and the performances even though they are mainly pretty good. The loss of key lieutenants also didn't help his PR cause.

The squad now is looking pretty youthful and developing nicely. We've got a decent set of options to mix the game plan up as well. I think he's doing a solid job, nothing out this world but a really solid job that's improving the side without the Eddie style drama.

a very decent job.

Aye. Tho to be finding your feet 2 years in is quite a luxury

Pretty good, decent job. Bout right. Though I'd say memories are pretty selective depending on your starting point view on Slightly Biased.

Did he take two years? Took a hapless side and made them into a very pragmatic winning machine at the world cup.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:32 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:27 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 9:56 am

a very decent job.

Aye. Tho to be finding your feet 2 years in is quite a luxury

Pretty good, decent job. Bout right. Though I'd say memories are pretty selective depending on your starting point view on Slightly Biased.

Did he take two years? Took a hapless side and made them into a very pragmatic winning machine at the world cup.

That's my point about selective memories tbh, and I was responding to 'He struggled initially but he's finding his feet and doing a very decent job'.....I seem to recall a lot of complaints about Borthwick post world cup because of pretty iffy efforts between then and the last 6N. Or am I wrong about that?

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:39 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:32 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:27 am

Aye. Tho to be finding your feet 2 years in is quite a luxury

Pretty good, decent job. Bout right. Though I'd say memories are pretty selective depending on your starting point view on Slightly Biased.

Did he take two years? Took a hapless side and made them into a very pragmatic winning machine at the world cup.

That's my point about selective memories tbh, and I was responding to 'He struggled initially but he's finding his feet and doing a very decent job'.....I seem to recall a lot of complaints about Borthwick post world cup because of pretty iffy efforts between then and the last 6N. Or am I wrong about that?

The world cup warm ups were ropey as well but it turned out that was part of the fitness regime. World cup was a success. Rebuilding the team after the world cup was a bit rough.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:19 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:39 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:32 am

Did he take two years? Took a hapless side and made them into a very pragmatic winning machine at the world cup.

That's my point about selective memories tbh, and I was responding to 'He struggled initially but he's finding his feet and doing a very decent job'.....I seem to recall a lot of complaints about Borthwick post world cup because of pretty iffy efforts between then and the last 6N. Or am I wrong about that?

The world cup warm ups were ropey as well but it turned out that was part of the fitness regime. World cup was a success. Rebuilding the team after the world cup was a bit rough.

Quite. And imo he was a bit out of his depth.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:23 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:19 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 10:39 am

That's my point about selective memories tbh, and I was responding to 'He struggled initially but he's finding his feet and doing a very decent job'.....I seem to recall a lot of complaints about Borthwick post world cup because of pretty iffy efforts between then and the last 6N. Or am I wrong about that?

The world cup warm ups were ropey as well but it turned out that was part of the fitness regime. World cup was a success. Rebuilding the team after the world cup was a bit rough.

Quite. And imo he was a bit out of his depth.

I'm not sure he was out of his depth but clearly things weren't working with the coaching staff. I think he also had more patience and a long term plan than he explained to anyone publicly so a lot of us were frustrated and non plussed for a while. It seems to be coming to fruition now but it hasn't been a smooth or pretty path.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:29 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:23 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:19 am

The world cup warm ups were ropey as well but it turned out that was part of the fitness regime. World cup was a success. Rebuilding the team after the world cup was a bit rough.

Quite. And imo he was a bit out of his depth.

I'm not sure he was out of his depth but clearly things weren't working with the coaching staff. I think he also had more patience and a long term plan than he explained to anyone publicly so a lot of us were frustrated and non plussed for a while. It seems to be coming to fruition now but it hasn't been a smooth or pretty path.

…so finding his feet then

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:32 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:29 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:23 am

Quite. And imo he was a bit out of his depth.

I'm not sure he was out of his depth but clearly things weren't working with the coaching staff. I think he also had more patience and a long term plan than he explained to anyone publicly so a lot of us were frustrated and non plussed for a while. It seems to be coming to fruition now but it hasn't been a smooth or pretty path.

…so finding his feet then

Well I was disputing the out of his depth bit.

I think he had a plan but it wasn't apparent to us and it'l seems to be coming to fruition now. Borthwick knew what he was doing and what his plan was, it's just not the way most of us would have tried to tackle the issues at hand.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 12:36 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:32 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 19, 2025 11:29 am

I'm not sure he was out of his depth but clearly things weren't working with the coaching staff. I think he also had more patience and a long term plan than he explained to anyone publicly so a lot of us were frustrated and non plussed for a while. It seems to be coming to fruition now but it hasn't been a smooth or pretty path.

…so finding his feet then

Well I was disputing the out of his depth bit.

I think he had a plan but it wasn't apparent to us and it'l seems to be coming to fruition now. Borthwick knew what he was doing and what his plan was, it's just not the way most of us would have tried to tackle the issues at hand.

You said that the first time. Opinions may vary.
IMO he was out of his depth and was finding his feet. You disagree and that’s fine.

It was a big step up from Leicester and being an assistant at international level. Inevitably he took time to settle. Think that was expected, hence he was cut a fair bit of slack early on.
Seems to be much more assured now and is guiding the side well.

There's the bit about 'lucky generals'. SB may be 'lucky' with the batch of players coming through (compared with his predecessors over the last 20 years+ anyway). If he gets the best out of this lot, by definition, that 'best' will be good. He will need some courage in allowing better players to overtake very good ones. I think he has what it takes.

So we've seen a gradual uptick in Borthwick's England performances.

But this could be the high water mark...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... nion-lions

Really...I just won't bother.

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:29 pm So we've seen a gradual uptick in Borthwick's England performances.

But this could be the high water mark...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... nion-lions

Really...I just won't bother.

In fairness, that article is a masterclass in fucking about with someone's words to run a narrative. What actually happened was Fazlet was asked in a press conference, "Are you going to make yourself available for England again?" and he said, "My focus is on what's in front of me, which is here. And then when I get back to Saracens, making sure I'm myself. If I do that, I'll enjoy it and then we'll see," before going on to talk about how he manages his mental health and deals with social media abuse.

The Guardian has then concatenated that with his jokey mock-offended answer about "whether there's life in him yet" where he said that he still felt young and Sexton played forever, to write an article about, "FARRELL CONSIDERS MAKING HIMSELF AVAILABLE FOR ENGLAND. WANTS TO PLAY AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. SOUNDS MORE OPEN TO THE IDEA THAN AT ANY STAGE SINCE HE DECIDED TO TAKE A BREAK."

I don't have a huge amount of time for him as a player at present, but putting out that kind of misleading article because they know it'll make fans go feral on social media and give them clicks, is an incredibly irresponsible and dickish thing to do.

Puja