RugbyRebels

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:54 am**

Randall has looked as disappointing as Spencer in a ln England shirt to date though. JvP hasn't hit his best form yet but he's the best scrum half of the three. Also gives us a nice middle ground in that he's quicker from the base and more attacking than the stodgy Spencer but can actually bring an element of game management to proceedings unlike Randall. Whomever starts is going to be paired with Marcus Smith, who whilst much improved in the game management area it's still his weakest aspect, so it makes sense to not start Randall.

I'm hoping JvP to start then launch Randall off the bench for impact later in the game. I've said it before, we need a high impact bench and I'd be tempted to stack it with the likes of Genge, CCS, Dan, Randall, Sleightholme and I wish we'd picked Pearson because he'd have been another one that could have slotted in there as well and brought intensity and carrying presence in the second half.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:11 am**

I’d start Randall and set the team to really go at them from the off.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:57 am**

Criticism of Spencer needs knowledge of what he was told to do before coming on. Arguably, he is the best SH at box-kicking. If that's what he was told to do, fair enough. He has a much better all-round game than that, though. I'd be fascinated to see the result of the three SHs competing in, say, a 40 metre sprint. Randall, as a short shuffler is always perceived as the quickest, but I'm not so sure he'd beat Spencer. He probably would over 5 metres.

I suppose the selection should depend primarily on the best fit with Marcus who must start, IMO. If fully fit and on form, that probably means JvP. If not, Randall. Ironically, I think Spencer and Ford would suit each other but I'd have neither in the 23.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 9:35 am**

Bloody hell! Talk about building up Usain Spencer then knocking him down.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 9:37 am**

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:54 am Randall has looked as disappointing as Spencer in a ln England shirt to date though. JvP hasn't hit his best form yet but he's the best scrum half of the three. Also gives us a nice middle ground in that he's quicker from the base and more attacking than the stodgy Spencer but can actually bring an element of game management to proceedings unlike Randall. Whomever starts is going to be paired with Marcus Smith, who whilst much improved in the game management area it's still his weakest aspect, so it makes sense to not start Randall.

I'm hoping JvP to start then launch Randall off the bench for impact later in the game. I've said it before, we need a high impact bench and I'd be tempted to stack it with the likes of Genge, CCS, Dan, Randall, Sleightholme and I wish we'd picked Pearson because he'd have been another one that could have slotted in there as well and brought intensity and carrying presence in the second half.

Spencer is not slow, even if he might have slowed a bit as he's got older. He's not a naturally stodgy player either, but coaches want to use his big old boot; not saying I'd pick, for the same reasons as outlined by Puja.....but I do wonder if actually starting him would make a difference to how he plays, alongside a different set of instructions. Too many of our 9's before Mitchell have been playing by numbers, rather than what suits their game, imo.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:04 am**

Spencer is much more of a revelation with a demanding and pressure releasing fly half like Russell, whilst you can see they have built up a good trust. Spencer’s listens and acts.

I’m not sure England have that fly half character, and would also look at what Spencer has been asked to do when he has come on. He has looked glacial, which he isn’t for his club, so something is awry in the white shirt / environment.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:20 am**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:04 am Spencer is much more of a revelation with a demanding and pressure releasing fly half like Russell, whilst you can see they have built up a good trust. Spencer’s listens and acts.

I’m not sure England have that fly half character, and would also look at what Spencer has been asked to do when he has come on. He has looked glacial, which he isn’t for his club, so something is awry in the white shirt / environment.

I think he freezes. He needs a solid, consistent environment around him. He’s not going to get that with England so I wouldn’t pick him.

Pick Randall, JvP, even Porter.

Mitchell will be fit again and maybe we’ll see Quirke make a return to form and fitness at some point.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:30 am**

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:20 amI think he freezes.

By his own admission
https://archive.ph/ShJeX

Ben Spencer: I feared mistakes – playing with Finn Russell changed that
new
Scrum half, who played in 2019 World Cup final with jet lag, has endured stop-start England career but is set for central role this autumn after inspiration from Scotland international at Bath

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:47 am**

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:30 am
Stom wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:20 amI think he freezes.
By his own admission
https://archive.ph/ShJeX
Ben Spencer: I feared mistakes – playing with Finn Russell changed that
new
Scrum half, who played in 2019 World Cup final with jet lag, has endured stop-start England career but is set for central role this autumn after inspiration from Scotland international at Bath

That makes a lot of sense with what I saw of him in the m-b-ms - every ruck when he came on, he got there, looked at the situation and then started calling the forwards in to form the caterpillar (which was often quite slow because none of them were ready for that call). At the time, I was intensely frustrated at him being so risk-averse that he ended up costing us both games, so maybe a show of trust from having the starter's shirt is what he needs to believe in himself more and not pick the slowest, least-blamable action at every single ruck.

This bit from that article was very encouraging though:

Every prospective scrum half has been told by England that they must recycle the ball from rucks within two seconds as much as possible to fit the high-tempo game plan.

“If you’re going to play No 9 for England you need to get the ball away fast,” Wigglesworth, the attack coach, explained. “We measure every attacking ruck. Not speed of ball but speed of release. When the ball is available, it’s how fast you can move it.”

Suggests that the Wiggy revolution of our attack is going to continue, which is good.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:54 amRandall has looked as disappointing as Spencer in a ln England shirt to date though.

That seems incredibly harsh. I wouldn't say Randall's 7 caps have been perfect, but I can't recall an occasion where he's put in a performance that has let England down before. Some ropey box-kicks, but his passing and general play has been solid to good, IIRC.

Puja

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:52 am**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:04 am Spencer is much more of a revelation with a demanding and pressure releasing fly half like Russell, whilst you can see they have built up a good trust. Spencer’s listens and acts.

I’m not sure England have that fly half character, and would also look at what Spencer has been asked to do when he has come on. He has looked glacial, which he isn’t for his club, so something is awry in the white shirt / environment.

this too

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:54 am**

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:47 am
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:30 am
Stom wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:20 amI think he freezes.
By his own admission
https://archive.ph/ShJeX
Ben Spencer: I feared mistakes – playing with Finn Russell changed that
new
Scrum half, who played in 2019 World Cup final with jet lag, has endured stop-start England career but is set for central role this autumn after inspiration from Scotland international at Bath

That makes a lot of sense with what I saw of him in the m-b-ms - every ruck when he came on, he got there, looked at the situation and then started calling the forwards in to form the caterpillar (which was often quite slow because none of them were ready for that call). At the time, I was intensely frustrated at him being so risk-averse that he ended up costing us both games, so maybe a show of trust from having the starter's shirt is what he needs to believe in himself more and not pick the slowest, least-blamable action at every single ruck.

This bit from that article was very encouraging though:
Every prospective scrum half has been told by England that they must recycle the ball from rucks within two seconds as much as possible to fit the high-tempo game plan.
“If you’re going to play No 9 for England you need to get the ball away fast,” Wigglesworth, the attack coach, explained. “We measure every attacking ruck. Not speed of ball but speed of release. When the ball is available, it’s how fast you can move it.”
Suggests that the Wiggy revolution of our attack is going to continue, which is good.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 7:54 amRandall has looked as disappointing as Spencer in a ln England shirt to date though.
That seems incredibly harsh. I wouldn't say Randall's 7 caps have been perfect, but I can't recall an occasion where he's put in a performance that has let England down before. Some ropey box-kicks, but his passing and general play has been solid to good, IIRC.

Puja

as I said, sort of, we've managed to stifle most 9's natural games in an England shirt, until Mitchell. Ironic that this is Wiggy's influence, given his own style of play generally.

Mind, the stats about 9's and ruck speed don't really encourage, if they were meant to

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 12:33 pm**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:04 am Spencer is much more of a revelation with a demanding and pressure releasing fly half like Russell, whilst you can see they have built up a good trust. Spencer’s listens and acts.

I’m not sure England have that fly half character, and would also look at what Spencer has been asked to do when he has come on. He has looked glacial, which he isn’t for his club, so something is awry in the white shirt / environment.

This.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 12:39 pm**

The Wiggy Revolution.

Nope, cant get my head around that. SH's being told to get the ball away quickly. Er, yes please.

Spencer has never looked comfortable when playing for England. He hasnt produced his natural game and seems overly cautious. If he can play with more freedom, then that will be a big positive for us.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:14 pm**

Saw some comments from Campo today, about playing a more attacking game, giving Smith license to attack etc.

I don't agree with everything he said, but there was a lot of good stuff in there IMO

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:10 pm**

Telegraph rugby podcast has an interview with the Wiggler up. Haven't listened yet.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:12 pm**

Anyone know when the team's coming out?

ETA. Ah. Never mind - I found out.

Puja

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:14 pm**

For those who don't read cryptic

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:26 pm**

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:14 pm For those who don't read cryptic

We don't get charged extra per thread, you know - I opened a new one!

Interesting that Maro's the face of it, despite George being captain.

Puja

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:30 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:26 pm
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:14 pm For those who don't read cryptic
We don't get charged extra per thread, you know - I opened a new one!

Interesting that Maro's the face of it, despite George being captain.

Puja

He should be England captain. Not because he's a better "captain" than George, but because he is an incredible role model and exactly the kind of erudite human we want to be putting in front of the world and exclaiming "Come, play rugby, and you too can be like this incredibly intelligent, creative, and good looking young man."

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:32 pm**

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:30 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:26 pm
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:14 pm For those who don't read cryptic
We don't get charged extra per thread, you know - I opened a new one!

Interesting that Maro's the face of it, despite George being captain.

Puja
He should be England captain. Not because he's a better "captain" than George, but because he is an incredible role model and exactly the kind of erudite human we want to be putting in front of the world and exclaiming "Come, play rugby, and you too can be like this incredibly intelligent, creative, and good looking young man."

Someone get Stom an aubergine emoji.

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:36 pm**

He's not wrong though

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Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:43 pm**

Tbf, Itoje’s been open about not wanting the role until very recently. I’m hoping he’ll get it after George (who is also deserving of the job and a pretty good role model).

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:48 pm**

Can't believe you're ignoring my aubergine. I thought you were different from the others Mells

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:50 pm**

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:43 pm George (who is also deserving of the job and a pretty good role model).

who also looks like Danno's aubergine phnaaar

Posted: **Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:52 pm**

The thing with George, and it is a tough problem, is he’s 34 now. 37 by the next World Cup. We desperately need alternatives to emerge / be tried / looked at

RugbyRebels

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