RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:21 am I’m tempted to say we stick with Marcus at fullback for the 6 nations, assuming that’s what is happening for France, so we can at least shine a light on whether this is a tactic worth pursuing.

Freeman’s days at 15 appear to be over (and Daly’s at this level) and while I do think Steward has grown as a player, we know his strengths and weaknesses.

I don’t like the chopping and changing there, particularly while 8 and centre still seem more immediate issues, but I could live with that selection.

I would agree with that. Having said earlier that it seemed like a Bothways horses-for-courses selection specifically for France, I'm very much hoping that it's not. If MSmith was established as a fullback and FSmith established as an international fly-half, then it might be okay to be chopping and changing between games, but neither of them are proven and we won't really get a body of evidence unless they're given the rest of the 6N, or at the bare minimum the Scotland match as well.

Freeman hasn't played 15 for more than 2 years and even that was only 2 games for Saints. You have to go all the way back to 20/21 to find a season where 50% of his games were at 15, so I think the dream might definitely be dead on that one.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:15 am I would love the M-B-M’s back to show who did what when rather than relying on our recollections.

I rate Fin Smith but shifting Marcus to 15 is a shabby way to treat him. Not really sure he can win here? He plays badly and gets criticised when people forget he’s not a 15. He plays well and there’s a higher change he gets stuck there until someone exposes him for not being a 15 and then gets dropped. If Fin has a bad game, I guarantee we’ll hear ‘France is a tough debut start. He needs another go to be sure’, ‘the pack let him down’ etc. The kind of excuses Marcus doesn’t get.

I am feeling significantly better and did consider doing the Ireland m-b-m, but was just too sad at losing yet another tight game to launch into it straight away, which is needed when there's only a week's turnaround. As long as we don't get utterly pelted by France (cause I'm interested in looking at England, not France having an exhibition match), then I'll look to do a m-b-m this week.

I really do think 15 is Smith's international position long-term, in a similar vein to Beauden Barrett. He's got such good pace, stepping, and eye for a gap, that it seems wasted in the tighter confines of 10 at international level, where he's not going to be afforded the same space. I think we'll see the best of him attacking the 13 channel and popping up in broken play. I'm not concerned about him being "exposed for not being a 15" because he has played there successfully before and, while experience matters, he's more than capable of doing it. He might make mistakes, but then so do Steward and Furbank who do it every week.

On "The kind of excuses Marcus doesn't get", he has now played 42 games for England, of which 31 were starts and 29 were starts at fly-half. He's also started the last 8 games for England at 10 (coincidentally, the same 8 that we've lost every game except the two against Japan). He's not some youngster who's barely had a chance to get his feet under the table before getting the shepherd's crook - he's got more caps than Freddie Steward, Jack van Poortvliet, Ben Earl, Alex Dombrandt, Ollie Chessum, Ollie Lawrence, and there's no fan/pundit campaign for "Let him have a proper run of games, you coward!" for any of them.

I do get the difficulties in those 8 games and the arguments that he's been hamstrung by this or by that or by being taken off. But it's not like we're being unfair and not giving him a proper chance to see what he can do - he's had 29 starts and the last 8 games. He has definitely had a go.

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 2:08 pm Might this be the end for Dingwall? With his club 9/10 starting, if he was ever going to get in against significant opposition, surely this was his time for the 12 shirt.

Not sure I'd be in favour of changing a centre as well as the 10 and 15 and winger (and likely moving Freeman from 14 to 11), especially when Slade reached the heady status of "Okay, I guess" last week.

Puja

Of Marcus's 29 starts at FH, how many involved either Farrell or Ford being there for any part of the games? I'd discount them all.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:02 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:54 am So frustrating as we're not far from being good... in the pack surely:

Drop Earl, 8 Willis, 6 Hill, 7 Tom Curry (Ben Curry on bench), Chessum in for Martin.

Hill needs a start at some point this 6N but it's likely to be a 'hiding to nothing' situation - play badly and it's goodbye, play well and it's only Italy/Wales.

Why Chessum for Martin? You are not the only one advocating that and I don't see the logic.

Because Martin managed to do Jack Jones hard yards carrying last Saturday and we really could do with at least one of our starting locks with this in their skillset

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:24 pm Marcus at FB does keep our most inventive attacker in the side and does allow us to consider the merits of Fin at 10. It might be that the arrangement suits both players and, more importantly, enables the team to function better. I'm very interested to see how Fin handles the step up as a starter.

Its worth a punt, surely?

SB cops a lot of flak - some of it quite justifiably - but here he appears to be trying something that does have its attractions.

‘Worth a punt’ …. Says something about where we are at, I guess.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:10 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:24 pm Marcus at FB does keep our most inventive attacker in the side and does allow us to consider the merits of Fin at 10. It might be that the arrangement suits both players and, more importantly, enables the team to function better. I'm very interested to see how Fin handles the step up as a starter.

Its worth a punt, surely?

SB cops a lot of flak - some of it quite justifiably - but here he appears to be trying something that does have its attractions.

‘Worth a punt’ …. Says something about where we are at, I guess.

Indeed.

Bergamasco at 9 was worth a punt.

I'm trying to work out what the fullback equivalent of Bergamasco (at 9) even looks like. Worse than Monye playing there I guess.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:03 pm I'm trying to work out what the fullback equivalent of Bergamasco (at 9) even looks like. Worse than Monye playing there I guess.

Didn’t Chapman come on at fb when Aus handed us a 76-0 thumping.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:03 pm I'm trying to work out what the fullback equivalent of Bergamasco (at 9) even looks like. Worse than Monye playing there I guess.

Cadan Murley?

I quite like the fact Fin Smith is getting a go, he's been in great form for Saints side that has been anything but. Puts some competition into the battle for the 10 shirt as Marcus has pretty much had it for the last year and not really taken ownership of it, Ford being too broken to offer much of a challenge.

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:10 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:24 pm Marcus at FB does keep our most inventive attacker in the side and does allow us to consider the merits of Fin at 10. It might be that the arrangement suits both players and, more importantly, enables the team to function better. I'm very interested to see how Fin handles the step up as a starter.

Its worth a punt, surely?

SB cops a lot of flak - some of it quite justifiably - but here he appears to be trying something that does have its attractions.

‘Worth a punt’ …. Says something about where we are at, I guess.

Indeed.

Bergamasco at 9 was worth a punt.

tbh it was more a reflection of a lack of an obvious and progressive plan, more like whack a mole. See Lawes` comments I guess. Be great if I were wrong, and theres a strategy being played out.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:55 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:10 pm
‘Worth a punt’ …. Says something about where we are at, I guess.

Indeed.

Bergamasco at 9 was worth a punt.

tbh it was more a reflection of a lack of an obvious and progressive plan, more like whack a mole. See Lawes` comments I guess. Be great if I were wrong, and theres a strategy being played out.

Yep, knew what you meant. It is what I find most frustrating about where we are at. Yes, we must assume there is a plan, but it has a stench of knee jerk reactions following a defeat.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:42 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:03 pm I'm trying to work out what the fullback equivalent of Bergamasco (at 9) even looks like. Worse than Monye playing there I guess.

Cadan Murley?

Well played. I guess I was inviting that one.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:03 pm I'm trying to work out what the fullback equivalent of Bergamasco (at 9) even looks like. Worse than Monye playing there I guess.

Not fullback but in wider Bergamasco at 9 comparison I’ll raise you one Tom Curry or Tom Wood playing at No.8 ( both make Earl look Lions class there by comparison )

Sleightholme starting apparently.

Presume Steward will be on bench covering full back and wing with Freeman covering centre.

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:11 am Sleightholme starting apparently.

Presume Steward will be on bench covering full back and wing with Freeman covering centre.

I hope he’s fully fit. Feels a bit tough on Roebuck in a way but good if England are prioritising the guy who is RAPID. That’ll be a good test opposite Penaud.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:16 am

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:11 am Sleightholme starting apparently.

Presume Steward will be on bench covering full back and wing with Freeman covering centre.

I hope he’s fully fit. Feels a bit tough on Roebuck in a way but good if England are prioritising the guy who is RAPID. That’ll be a good test opposite Penaud.

Good news; I was worried it'd be Steward at 14 and we'd be trying to reinvent the wheel with a false 15 and him and Smith swapping around like Eddie tried with Tuilagi on the wing and Slade dropping back.

Entirely possible that Sleightholme over Roebuck is a balance thing. Since the Scotland game last year, it's been consistently a combo of fast winger and Freeman - Feyi-Waboso, Sleightholme, Murley, then Sleightholme. Mayhap Roebuck is seen as the Freeman understudy, rather than someone who can play alongside him?

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:16 am

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:11 am Sleightholme starting apparently.

Presume Steward will be on bench covering full back and wing with Freeman covering centre.

I hope he’s fully fit. Feels a bit tough on Roebuck in a way but good if England are prioritising the guy who is RAPID. That’ll be a good test opposite Penaud.

Presume we want one more aerial winger and one rapid winger. So it's Roebuck or Freeman and Murley or Sleightholme.

Steward could miss out. Borthwick doesn't tend to name a bench to cover possible injuries he tends to name them with the intention of using them. Unless his plan is to bring Steward on for the final 20 and look to attack the French midfield with his direct running and through contestable kicks over the top not sure he won't just look at Freeman or Slade as cover options in case of injury. Harsh on Steward but there you go.

I couldn't tell if either of you were alluding to me repeatedly saying that thing about liking a strike runner on one wing and a faux-fullback/aerial threat on the other, but as much as that's an oversimplifcation (and a dumbing down of Freeman/Roebuck's abilities) I do agree. I think that also works better with the nippy, playmaking, counter-attacking, failed fly-half style fullback such as George Furbank or Beuden Barrett. Smith will have to do.

Now Puja's idea of Steward coming on at 12 to attack the French midfield, and chasing dinks over the top, I like!

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:35 am
Unless his plan is to bring Steward on for the final 20 and look to attack the French midfield with his direct running and through contestable kicks over the top not sure he won't just look at Freeman or Slade as cover options in case of injury. Harsh on Steward but there you go.

Is that to defend a lead or prevent a massacre?

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:57 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:35 am
Unless his plan is to bring Steward on for the final 20 and look to attack the French midfield with his direct running and through contestable kicks over the top not sure he won't just look at Freeman or Slade as cover options in case of injury. Harsh on Steward but there you go.

Is that to defend a lead or prevent a massacre?

Probably to try and grab a losing bonus point.

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:57 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:35 am
Unless his plan is to bring Steward on for the final 20 and look to attack the French midfield with his direct running and through contestable kicks over the top not sure he won't just look at Freeman or Slade as cover options in case of injury. Harsh on Steward but there you go.

Is that to defend a lead or prevent a massacre?

Both, and it will fail.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:08 am

p/d wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:57 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:35 am
Unless his plan is to bring Steward on for the final 20 and look to attack the French midfield with his direct running and through contestable kicks over the top not sure he won't just look at Freeman or Slade as cover options in case of injury. Harsh on Steward but there you go.

Is that to defend a lead or prevent a massacre?

Both, and it will fail.

If circumstances dictate he ends up at 12 then I will view the failure with great optimism of a new dawn

Here's the official French team:

15. Ramos ; 14. Penaud, 13. Barassi, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Dupont (cap.) ; 7. Boudehent, 8. Alldritt, 6. Cros ; 5. Meafou, 4. Roumat ; 3. Atonio, 2. Mauvaka, 1. Gros

Remplaçants : 16. Marchand, 17. Baille, 18. Colombe, 19. Auradou, 20. Guillard, 21. Jegou, 22. Le Garrec, 23. Gailleton.

I'd read that Lucu would be the replacement scrum half but Galthié prefers Nolann le Garrec.

Lol. They've fallen in to Steve's trap by announcing first. Now we can simply select our team that will destroy this one.