RugbyRebels

Billyfish wrote:Facebook page is unreadable. Full of hysteria and hyperbole. Another consequence of ramping up the fear I guess. Especially Londoners. Some very sensible people with some outlandish gushings. I blame Diana Spencer.

The thing is, its not so much whats happened but why its happened that is scary. At the start of this process I believed getting out of the neoliberal corporate grip of the EU was a good move, regaining sovereignty for future governments to properly use economics to grow the country.

However, if anything that should be a goal for the left. Instead, Leave has been hijacked by the extreme right, for reasons that are diabolical and saddening. This word cloud of Leave posts on social media highlights it nicely:



Immigrants are not the reason for the economy being the way it is, its the government elected by the exact same people who are likely to have voted to leave. Scapegoating and racism is not the answer, and now there is a very real possibility both the Tories and Labour will take a huge jump to the right to pander to this movement.

I'm looking forward to all the benefits promised by leave now, anyone any idea when they kick in?

• Reduction in cost of living of 8%
  Increased university research funding
  Reduction in VAT
  1.6% increase in GDP
  Increased support for farmers
  Increased funding for the NHS

I'm particularly interested in the last one, as I watched the Leave TV ad that promised immediate treatment at the hospital and I am currently on a 14 week waiting list for a dermatology appointment.

It was the lefty labour heartlands who voted in their droves for Leave due to worries over immigration. Immigration concerns are not solely a Right issue.

I assume you've all seen that FT graph showing how the areas most in favour of Leave actually receive the most EU cash, and that Cornwall votes Leave but now it's council is demanding its EU payments be guaranteed.

Serious Q: during the campaigning, did local government bodies publicise how much direct benefit their areas got (or didn't get) from the EU?

bruce wrote:It was the lefty labour heartlands who voted in their droves for Leave due to worries over immigration. Immigration concerns are not solely a Right issue.

Indeed. The right wing racist anti immigrant line has been a useful one for years for many soft left or centralists, but immigration concerns abound in areas that are Labour heartlands.

It seems that the most noble thing Britain could do now is to negotiate its exit terms to include the right for Scotland and NI to remain in as independent states, should they wish, and for the UK (or what's left of it) to be guaranteed candidate status for re-entry in,say, 20 years' time should it want it.

Lizard wrote:I assume you've all seen that FT graph showing how the areas most in favour of Leave actually receive the most EU cash, and that Cornwall votes Leave but now it's council is demanding its EU payments be guaranteed.

Serious Q: during the campaigning, did local government bodies publicise how much direct benefit their areas got (or didn't get) from the EU?

Cant comment on the whole country, but in Staffordshire I saw nothing like that.

That said, the EU payments are our money coming back again. It is a fact that we paid more in than we got out, so it should be a logical step for the govt to promise that post us leaving the EU, which will be 2 years away, the funding provided by the EU will be matched by the UK govt.

Lizard wrote:It seems that the most noble thing Britain could do now is to negotiate its exit terms to include the right for Scotland and NI to remain in as independent states, should they wish, and for the UK (or what's left of it) to be guaranteed candidate status for re-entry in,say, 20 years' time should it want it.

Another referendum is needed in Scotland first, before that I can't see the UK govt agreeing to anything like that.

Im more concerned over NI. The leave remain winning regions looked awfully sectarian and its not like there hasn't been a recent history of violence. Sinn Fein are already looking for a unification vote, but there are still plenty of hard line unionists who will be unhappy at that idea.

bruce wrote:It was the lefty labour heartlands who voted in their droves for Leave due to worries over immigration. Immigration concerns are not solely a Right issue.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean the actual left, not New Labour Blairites who believes in balancing books and free markets.

Lizard wrote:I assume you've all seen that FT graph showing how the areas most in favour of Leave actually receive the most EU cash, and that Cornwall votes Leave but now it's council is demanding its EU payments be guaranteed.

Serious Q: during the campaigning, did local government bodies publicise how much direct benefit their areas got (or didn't get) from the EU?

It was mentioned, but as Sandy said, the campaign was more concerned with spreading the fear than emphasising the positives.

The real question is will a future UK govt. pick up where the EU left off re funding projects etc...

Sandydragon wrote:

Lizard wrote:It seems that the most noble thing Britain could do now is to negotiate its exit terms to include the right for Scotland and NI to remain in as independent states, should they wish, and for the UK (or what's left of it) to be guaranteed candidate status for re-entry in,say, 20 years' time should it want it.

Another referendum is needed in Scotland first, before that I can't see the UK govt agreeing to anything like that.

That's what I meant by "should they wish".

jared_7 wrote:

bruce wrote:It was the lefty labour heartlands who voted in their droves for Leave due to worries over immigration. Immigration concerns are not solely a Right issue.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean the actual left, not New Labour Blairites who believes in balancing books and free markets.

`im not sure that you will find too many Blairites in the old South Wales mining areas, yet they voted to leave. Immigration is not just a right wing concern, that includes the old left and the Blairite version.

Lizard wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Lizard wrote:It seems that the most noble thing Britain could do now is to negotiate its exit terms to include the right for Scotland and NI to remain in as independent states, should they wish, and for the UK (or what's left of it) to be guaranteed candidate status for re-entry in,say, 20 years' time should it want it.

Another referendum is needed in Scotland first, before that I can't see the UK govt agreeing to anything like that.

That's what I meant by "should they wish".

Still no. If the Scots realize that they can join the EU if they leave the UK, then the referendum will be lost by Westminster. Alternatively, if the UK govt negotiates collectively and tells the Scots, if you want to leave the UK then you need to apply from scratch, with all the baggage that entails, plus not use Sterling until you have to use the Euro, then that puts a whole new complexion o the debate.

No UK govt is going to make it that straight forward for the Nats.

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:

bruce wrote:It was the lefty labour heartlands who voted in their droves for Leave due to worries over immigration. Immigration concerns are not solely a Right issue.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean the actual left, not New Labour Blairites who believes in balancing books and free markets.

`im not sure that you will find too many Blairites in the old South Wales mining areas, yet they voted to leave. Immigration is not just a right wing concern, that includes the old left and the Blairite version.

Surely the old left went through the transition from Governments focussing on full employment, to using labour and the unemployed as a deliberate tool to reduce inflation and keep wages low to control the costs of production?

Surely they would know that immigrants have nothing to do with jobs or housing, ideology does?

jared_7 wrote:

Billyfish wrote:Facebook page is unreadable. Full of hysteria and hyperbole. Another consequence of ramping up the fear I guess. Especially Londoners. Some very sensible people with some outlandish gushings. I blame Diana Spencer.

The thing is, its not so much whats happened but why its happened that is scary. At the start of this process I believed getting out of the neoliberal corporate grip of the EU was a good move, regaining sovereignty for future governments to properly use economics to grow the country.

However, if anything that should be a goal for the left. Instead, Leave has been hijacked by the extreme right, for reasons that are diabolical and saddening. This word cloud of Leave posts on social media highlights it nicely:



Immigrants are not the reason for the economy being the way it is, its the government elected by the exact same people who are likely to have voted to leave. Scapegoating and racism is not the answer, and now there is a very real possibility both the Tories and Labour will take a huge jump to the right to pander to this movement.

Agreed. Unfortunately. A great deal of the population will have voted leave for the most dodgy of reasons. Consistent failure of consecutive govt.s to ever have a mature discussion about immigration and address people's concerns?

jared_7 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:
Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean the actual left, not New Labour Blairites who believes in balancing books and free markets.

`im not sure that you will find too many Blairites in the old South Wales mining areas, yet they voted to leave. Immigration is not just a right wing concern, that includes the old left and the Blairite version.

Surely the old left went through the transition from Governments focussing on full employment, to using labour and the unemployed as a deliberate tool to reduce inflation and keep wages low to control the costs of production?

Surely they would know that immigrants have nothing to do with jobs or housing, ideology does?

I disagree. I live in Stoke on Trent, a very safe Labur seat. I grew up in Newport, a Labour heartland. Both have a degree of immigration which statistically isn't that significant, yet anti-immigration is rife. The BNP have had local electoral success in Stoke because of disillusioned Labour voters who are fed up of their party not listening to them. I note your comments about ideology, but that isn't something many labour supporters are worried about - they are concerned at how many immigrants are moving in and (allegedly) taking their jobs. That may not match up with left ideology, but its the fact on the ground, as witnessed by the results from last night.

I wonder how long other European countries can deny their citizens a vote?

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
`im not sure that you will find too many Blairites in the old South Wales mining areas, yet they voted to leave. Immigration is not just a right wing concern, that includes the old left and the Blairite version.

Surely the old left went through the transition from Governments focussing on full employment, to using labour and the unemployed as a deliberate tool to reduce inflation and keep wages low to control the costs of production?

Surely they would know that immigrants have nothing to do with jobs or housing, ideology does?

I disagree. I live in Stoke on Trent, a very safe Labur seat. I grew up in Newport, a Labour heartland. Both have a degree of immigration which statistically isn't that significant, yet anti-immigration is rife. The BNP have had local electoral success in Stoke because of disillusioned Labour voters who are fed up of their party not listening to them. I note your comments about ideology, but that isn't something many labour supporters are worried about - they are concerned at how many immigrants are moving in and (allegedly) taking their jobs. That may not match up with left ideology, but its the fact on the ground, as witnessed by the results from last night.

Not listening to what, exactly? I guess thats what I'm digging at, if their complaints are a result of them buying into ideological dogma and the real Labour no longer represents those new views, then its them that have moved away from the left.

I just can't understand how anyone who is truly left on the political spectrum can see immigration as an issue.

Sandydragon wrote:I wonder how long other European countries can deny their citizens a vote?

The right wing everywhere shall leap upon the opportunity. Denmark next.

jared_7 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:
Surely the old left went through the transition from Governments focussing on full employment, to using labour and the unemployed as a deliberate tool to reduce inflation and keep wages low to control the costs of production?

Surely they would know that immigrants have nothing to do with jobs or housing, ideology does?

I disagree. I live in Stoke on Trent, a very safe Labur seat. I grew up in Newport, a Labour heartland. Both have a degree of immigration which statistically isn't that significant, yet anti-immigration is rife. The BNP have had local electoral success in Stoke because of disillusioned Labour voters who are fed up of their party not listening to them. I note your comments about ideology, but that isn't something many labour supporters are worried about - they are concerned at how many immigrants are moving in and (allegedly) taking their jobs. That may not match up with left ideology, but its the fact on the ground, as witnessed by the results from last night.

Not listening to what, exactly? I guess thats what I'm digging at, if their complaints are a result of them buying into ideological dogma and the real Labour no longer represents those new views, then its them that have moved away from the left.

I just can't understand how anyone who is truly left on the political spectrum can see immigration as an issue.

Interesting...

They would still be Labour voters (old labour not Blairite) and would agree with leftish economic issues, social policies etc. In fact much of what Corbyn wants, I think they would agree with (excepting things like Trident and defense where the British working class is often quite conservative).

But immigration is seen as a practical issue. Its nice to have an ideological view, but it gets kicked into touch once the reality of failing local services (allegedly the fault of immigrants) is a fact.

Its also worth considering how much this vote was the result of the traditional voter who feels disenfranchised, deciding to give the establishment a good kicking.

Edit: By not listening I mean practically everything. Their support is taken for granted by the Labour leadership. Immigration has been a major issue for a while, witnessed by the rise of UKIP and the BNP (to a lesser degree). At the last GE, UKIP took a lot of votes off Labour.

Billyfish wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:I wonder how long other European countries can deny their citizens a vote?

The right wing everywhere shall leap upon the opportunity. Denmark next.

The left in Spain could be tempted as well.

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: I disagree. I live in Stoke on Trent, a very safe Labur seat. I grew up in Newport, a Labour heartland. Both have a degree of immigration which statistically isn't that significant, yet anti-immigration is rife. The BNP have had local electoral success in Stoke because of disillusioned Labour voters who are fed up of their party not listening to them. I note your comments about ideology, but that isn't something many labour supporters are worried about - they are concerned at how many immigrants are moving in and (allegedly) taking their jobs. That may not match up with left ideology, but its the fact on the ground, as witnessed by the results from last night.

Not listening to what, exactly? I guess thats what I'm digging at, if their complaints are a result of them buying into ideological dogma and the real Labour no longer represents those new views, then its them that have moved away from the left.

I just can't understand how anyone who is truly left on the political spectrum can see immigration as an issue.

Interesting...

They would still be Labour voters (old labour not Blairite) and would agree with leftish economic issues, social policies etc. In fact much of what Corbyn wants, I think they would agree with (excepting things like Trident and defense where the British working class is often quite conservative).

But immigration is seen as a practical issue. Its nice to have an ideological view, but it gets kicked into touch once the reality of failing local services (allegedly the fault of immigrants) is a fact.

Its also worth considering how much this vote was the result of the traditional voter who feels disenfranchised, deciding to give the establishment a good kicking.

Edit: By not listening I mean practically everything. Their support is taken for granted by the Labour leadership. Immigration has been a major issue for a while, witnessed by the rise of UKIP and the BNP (to a lesser degree). At the last GE, UKIP took a lot of votes off Labour.

Yeah, I guess its dangerous to get caught up in left-right definitions.

My original point was Brexit is scarier not for actually exiting, but why we are doing so. Its worrying to me that half the people I see on the street (well maybe not because I'm in London) genuinely believe immigrants are the root of societies ills. I suspect they are going to be gravely disappointed in whats about to happen... Can't see much getting better for the "working" class any time soon.

jared_7 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:
Not listening to what, exactly? I guess thats what I'm digging at, if their complaints are a result of them buying into ideological dogma and the real Labour no longer represents those new views, then its them that have moved away from the left.

I just can't understand how anyone who is truly left on the political spectrum can see immigration as an issue.

Interesting...

They would still be Labour voters (old labour not Blairite) and would agree with leftish economic issues, social policies etc. In fact much of what Corbyn wants, I think they would agree with (excepting things like Trident and defense where the British working class is often quite conservative).

But immigration is seen as a practical issue. Its nice to have an ideological view, but it gets kicked into touch once the reality of failing local services (allegedly the fault of immigrants) is a fact.

Its also worth considering how much this vote was the result of the traditional voter who feels disenfranchised, deciding to give the establishment a good kicking.

Edit: By not listening I mean practically everything. Their support is taken for granted by the Labour leadership. Immigration has been a major issue for a while, witnessed by the rise of UKIP and the BNP (to a lesser degree). At the last GE, UKIP took a lot of votes off Labour.

Yeah, I guess its dangerous to get caught up in left-right definitions.

My original point was Brexit is scarier not for actually exiting, but why we are doing so. Its worrying to me that half the people I see on the street (well maybe not because I'm in London) genuinely believe immigrants are the root of societies ills. I suspect they are going to be gravely disappointed in whats about to happen... Can't see much getting better for the "working" class any time soon.

They'll certainly be disappointed if they think that immigration is going to go away. As will anyone who is expecting a quick change.

jared_7 wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

jared_7 wrote:
Surely the old left went through the transition from Governments focussing on full employment, to using labour and the unemployed as a deliberate tool to reduce inflation and keep wages low to control the costs of production?

Surely they would know that immigrants have nothing to do with jobs or housing, ideology does?

I disagree. I live in Stoke on Trent, a very safe Labur seat. I grew up in Newport, a Labour heartland. Both have a degree of immigration which statistically isn't that significant, yet anti-immigration is rife. The BNP have had local electoral success in Stoke because of disillusioned Labour voters who are fed up of their party not listening to them. I note your comments about ideology, but that isn't something many labour supporters are worried about - they are concerned at how many immigrants are moving in and (allegedly) taking their jobs. That may not match up with left ideology, but its the fact on the ground, as witnessed by the results from last night.

Not listening to what, exactly? I guess thats what I'm digging at, if their complaints are a result of them buying into ideological dogma and the real Labour no longer represents those new views, then its them that have moved away from the left.

I just can't understand how anyone who is truly left on the political spectrum can see immigration as an issue.

Because no working class individual is ever right or left. Many traditional Labour voters did so because the party stood up for their rights. If any party stands up for their rights now, they will follow them. As Labour lurched right under Blair, the party does not stand up for them, so they do not necessarily follow them...

Which is the issue. There is no party for the people. Corbyn may have decent ideas, but he is an "intellectual" leftie. He does not communicate, and the party does not work for the working class.

Those people have not lurched right, as they were never left in the first place. They have always been a combination of policies based upon what works, or would seem to work, for them. Every party in government fails to notice this, one of them on purpose.

This whole shambles is a complete failure of communication. A clear message trumps a jumbled one every time, even if that message is wrong.