Calcutta Cup

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah. Feels incredibly harsh to drop Weir after that but Horne makes a lot more sense to me.

[Big D]

Thought despite being neutralized at the breakdown Watson worked hard in defence again. Will be a learning experience in a young career.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

I've calmed down a bit now and I still think it's a fair comment to say that's the worst performance I've ever seen us put in. And I was around for much of the Matt Williams era... I hope that brings the arrogant ones in the team back down to earth as to where exactly they sit in the pecking order.

Everything was sh*t. No other top team has bad days at the office like we do - they deal with their howlers, pick themselves up and make the most of it. How the f*ck England scored from the same move 4 times is utterly embarrassing. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

There is something wrong with this team mentally.

Whilst I still don't think Weir has the minerals for international rugby he deserves a shout out for yesterday. He really did give 110%.

I've honestly never been this embarrassed with a Scotland performance and frankly I find it laughable that people think BVC is leaving a year or two too early. Frankly his departure cannot come soon enough. I am not blaming him for the loss but he is incapable of getting an 80 minute performance from this team.

[Adder]

I was pissed in a pub yesterday and missed quite a lot of the Second half action, Is seymour injuredas well?

What is the injury list like?

Hogg (concussion)
Bennett (hamstring)
Wilson (?)

[hugh_woatmeigh]

I was pissed in a pub yesterday and missed quite a lot of the Second half action, Is seymour injuredas well?

What is the injury list like?

Hogg (concussion)
Bennett (hamstring)
Wilson (?)

Hogg, Seymour & Wilson = head.

Bennett looked like a hammy in real time but it looks likely that it's his knee. Season is probably over.

[Cameo]

By the way, it's probably been said but what Brown did was stupid. Needless and could easily have been a red. We should cope better but we were relying on a good start and that killed it

[Big D]

By the way, it's probably been said but what Brown did was stupid. Needless and could easily have been a red. We should cope better but we were relying on a good start and that killed it

One of many issues on the day:
1. That tackle
2. Not adapting to the ref breakdown interpretation.
3. Senior players either losing their heads or lacking any common sense. See Barclays pen or Finns ludicrous pass on our line
4. Injuries
5. The inability of Taylor or VC to get a message on about what the defence needed to do off set piece. We lost 3 tries off 1st phase.
6. Inability of the centre's to sort it out themselves.
Etc.

[Mikey Brown]

I can't help but feel the ref thought he let Brown off too lightly throughout.

[Big D]

I was pissed in a pub yesterday and missed quite a lot of the Second half action, Is seymour injuredas well?

What is the injury list like?

Hogg (concussion)
Bennett (hamstring)
Wilson (?)

Hogg, Seymour & Wilson = head.

Bennett looked like a hammy in real time but it looks likely that it's his knee. Season is probably over.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson has a shoulder/arm/collar bone issue too.

[Big D]

I've honestly never been this embarrassed with a Scotland performance and frankly I find it laughable that people think BVC is leaving a year or two too early. Frankly his departure cannot come soon enough. I am not blaming him for the loss but he is incapable of getting an 80 minute performance from this team.

It's a long running issue with the national team.

Our attacking play is coming on nicely and our breakdown work by and large has been good. So where are the issues in our performances?

I honestly think our defensive patterns and "exit strategies" have a huge amount to do with the 80 min performance we are looking for.

Since Taylor has been defensive coach I have always felt we are way too passive even with one shooting out the line. When other top 8/9 nations put pressure on we settle into a passive defensive structure that welcomes pressure in a "bend don't break" type way and it sees us struggle to clear our lines and we create no momentum.

Since he came on board we ship on average 23.5 points and have had a points difference of only 109 (including yesterday's -40). With a more aggressive defensive system I feel like we could win more games than we have over the last few years.

[switchskier]

I've calmed down a bit now and I still think it's a fair comment to say that's the worst performance I've ever seen us put in. And I was around for much of the Matt Williams era... I hope that brings the arrogant ones in the team back down to earth as to where exactly they sit in the pecking order.

Everything was sh*t. No other top team has bad days at the office like we do - they deal with their howlers, pick themselves up and make the most of it. How the f*ck England scored from the same move 4 times is utterly embarrassing. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

There is something wrong with this team mentally.

Whilst I still don't think Weir has the minerals for international rugby he deserves a shout out for yesterday. He really did give 110%.

I've honestly never been this embarrassed with a Scotland performance and frankly I find it laughable that people think BVC is leaving a year or two too early. Frankly his departure cannot come soon enough. I am not blaming him for the loss but he is incapable of getting an 80 minute performance from this team.

Thank goodness you calmed down before posting

[switchskier]

I've honestly never been this embarrassed with a Scotland performance and frankly I find it laughable that people think BVC is leaving a year or two too early. Frankly his departure cannot come soon enough. I am not blaming him for the loss but he is incapable of getting an 80 minute performance from this team.

It's a long running issue with the national team.

Our attacking play is coming on nicely and our breakdown work by and large has been good. So where are the issues in our performances?

I honestly think our defensive patterns and "exit strategies" have a huge amount to do with the 80 min performance we are looking for.

Since Taylor has been defensive coach I have always felt we are way too passive even with one shooting out the line. When other top 8/9 nations put pressure on we settle into a passive defensive structure that welcomes pressure in a "bend don't break" type way and it sees us struggle to clear our lines and we create no momentum.

Since he came on board we ship on average 23.5 points and have had a points difference of only 109 (including yesterday's -40). With a more aggressive defensive system I feel like we could win more games than we have over the last few years.

Taylor's defense looks to be based on generating turnover ball that we can attack off. In this regard it's been pretty successful this year. What I've always said that we need is a Jason white type figure that can knock back the big runners when they're getting momentum.

[Mikey Brown]

I was pissed in a pub yesterday and missed quite a lot of the Second half action, Is seymour injuredas well?

What is the injury list like?

Hogg (concussion)
Bennett (hamstring)
Wilson (?)

Hogg, Seymour & Wilson = head.

Bennett looked like a hammy in real time but it looks likely that it's his knee. Season is probably over.

I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson has a shoulder/arm/collar bone issue too.

I'd be impressed if he has less than 6 different injuries to be honest. He took an absolute beating.

[Big D]

I've honestly never been this embarrassed with a Scotland performance and frankly I find it laughable that people think BVC is leaving a year or two too early. Frankly his departure cannot come soon enough. I am not blaming him for the loss but he is incapable of getting an 80 minute performance from this team.

It's a long running issue with the national team.

Our attacking play is coming on nicely and our breakdown work by and large has been good. So where are the issues in our performances?

I honestly think our defensive patterns and "exit strategies" have a huge amount to do with the 80 min performance we are looking for.

Since Taylor has been defensive coach I have always felt we are way too passive even with one shooting out the line. When other top 8/9 nations put pressure on we settle into a passive defensive structure that welcomes pressure in a "bend don't break" type way and it sees us struggle to clear our lines and we create no momentum.

Since he came on board we ship on average 23.5 points and have had a points difference of only 109 (including yesterday's -40). With a more aggressive defensive system I feel like we could win more games than we have over the last few years.

Taylor's defense looks to be based on generating turnover ball that we can attack off. In this regard it's been pretty successful this year. What I've always said that we need is a Jason white type figure that can knock back the big runners when they're getting momentum.

Arguably the breakdown work has improved thanks to employing one of the best breakdown guys in the business in Gray. But if we give Taylor credit for that part of his system to generate turnovers there are still parts that are poor. And there needs to be parts of the plan where we simply can't be passive as we are IMO.

We don't have a Jason White but as yesterday showed we don't seem to have a defensive plan b or ability to change plans either.

[Cameo]

Yeah, it's hard to pin down as for a while we were getting a lot of interceptions etc but when a decent team settles into phase play we seem to give up easy metres. See Australia in the world cup or Ireland second half this year. We either seem to be very good at the breakdown or to allow incredibly fast ball. We cant adapt to a ref who doesnt allow us to be scrappy

[switchskier]

Yeah, it's hard to pin down as for a while we were getting a lot of interceptions etc but when a decent team settles into phase play we seem to give up easy metres. See Australia in the world cup or Ireland second half this year. We either seem to be very good at the breakdown or to allow incredibly fast ball. We cant adapt to a ref who doesnt allow us to be scrappy

I think that our opponents would say that we struggle when we're not allowed to cheat. I don't quite agree as I think that we struggle to put the man down. If we had that the system would work pretty well, yesterday's mess in the centers excepted.

One thing that does occur is that Matt Scott has been castigated for missing a few in defense in the same sort of way. I wonder how much is a product of the system. Jones did really well to finish his tries but I'm not sold in defense, a hard choice.

[whatisthejava]

I decided to wait until after I coached this morning before posting, its quite funny but whenever Scotland lets themselves down theres nothing like getting back to the core of what rugby is about, having fun with your mates, our kids played brilliantly (P4s) , they tackled, competed on the floor, never gave up and had a smile on their face.

Im not going to compare them to the Scotland guys because that would just be a dick move.

For Scotland, I thought we were in trouble, all week I felt that we had the potential to trouble the English but would need lots to go for us. I don't know why but Twikenham is a graveyard, im pretty sure somewhere somehow we have annoyed the rugby gods and our punishment is we lose all ability down at Teikenham.

Since Big Jim and Hines have retired we don't have the wise guy that winds players up, we are a young team and although Wilson is happy to throw a punch or two the vast majority of that time didn't expect the English attitude and they didn't respond well, I think the English decided to push our buttons and see what would happen and it worked well for them.

An interesting stat I read was we have had 8 concussed players in 2 away games, if you want to sum up that game compare Itoje clothsline on Hogg ( this isnt a fair way to describe it, it was just a flying arm and caught Hogg right, lets call it reckless, but then if its Reckless its a yellow card and no yellow card) Hogg got a yellow for that when Glasgow played Munster. I think World rugby has a real problem when looking at games at European and then international level. Brown should have seen red, Itoje should have been carded, Hughes should have been carded for cynical tackling as well, consussion is a growing problem and World Rugby is ignoring it or at most playing lip service to it. Far to many situations now in a rugby game where a player can be hurt and its called a 50/50 and nothing happens, either stupidity in the line out, jumping for a high ball, a clothesline , late tackle. I also think World Rugby need to do something about a subset of their refs that think a turnover is valid if you are still on your feet after having 3 - 5 guys take a running charge at you, both the French and English ref prevented us turn overing any ball by refusing to enforce the law and force the release the ball, even when he called tackle he allowed England players to keep trying to strip the ball. A couple of bad consussions happening in this area and highlighted in the press will remind world rugby to do something here

I think we won't see that ref again for a while, he lose control of the game and the players and it showed, he lacked authority, was inconsistent and made bad decisions rather than pulling the captains together after the first or second handbags and laying down the law.


I thought England were superb, that was their best game of the Edde Jones era, even without our defensive problems they were fantastic and deserve their win and the spoils. I have been a doubter of JJ but he was simply world class yesterday ant taking his chances.

Scotland really need a sports psychologist to work with the team when things go wrong, It must be hard on any team when you go away from home and your players start getting smashed left right and centre and get injured and your left with a makeshift team, but you need to adapt, calm things down hold onto the ball and get back to your game.


Our best chance at 2nd is the following
England win - if they play like that Ireland are in real trouble
France win by a small amount without a try bp
We beat Italy by 30 + the difference in Wales v France

The worse result is if France get a BP and Italy win then we are 4th.

[Renniks]

Surely best result is:
England win
Wales win but don't get 4 tries
You beat Italy with 4 tries+

That puts you second without involving points difference

Worst result would be:
Italy win by more than 7 and France - Wales is a close game (whoever wins)
Leaving you in 5th

I think the top scenario is actually quite likely, and the way the England game went aside, Scotland deserve to be second…

[whatisthejava]

Ahh yeah your right, Wales might do it as they should have real confidence after Ireland.

[QwentyJ]

That was fucking embarrassing. I think it's only right we congratulate the English on a comprehensive performance. They blasted us to kingdom come but I think the luck fell way in their favour.

The referee Raynard was poor and poor throughout the contest. Why did they let an amateur referee have that game? Brown should have really have been red-carded, Hughes and Itoje (also a fucking wind-up merchant, which I don't appreciate as I think it means he's starting to buy his own hype) should have also been sent to the sin bin plus a plethora of forward passes and infringements off the ball (both teams lest I be accused of being a sour Jock). I haven't even mentioned the injuries but if you have to put a reserve fly-half at full back and a scrum half to wing, you are in trouble and your defence will be fucked.

Whoever the England analyst for attack is should get a £100k pay-rise as he spotted a fragility in defence between Dunbar and Jones that no-one really saw coming. They had their heads on from the get go and would have been spurred on by the corporate prawn mob who got their £140 seat ticket's worth. I was hoping Farrell would miss the match but he showed his class. I think he's the best 12 on the planet right now.

If we can get a team out next week then I want the lads to take it out on Italy otherwise all the talk about improvement will be for naught and a feckless goodbye for VC who deserves better. The one match where we had to be in the right place mentally, we abandoned without even a shot being fired. Hopefully our back 3 survive the HIA scares.

Monday in the office is going to be a bad day.

P.S. I can confirm Danny Care is STILL a prick.

[ARM]

[morepork]

"I think he's the best 12 on the planet right now"

Come again?

[Eugene Wrayburn]

"I think he's the best 12 on the planet right now"

Come again?

Does tend to discredit everything he has ever said or ever well say.

[Mikey Brown]

"I think he's the best 12 on the planet right now"

Come again?

Ha. Who said that? Sir Clive?

The last page of this thread has made me feel slightly better about all this today. It's strange feeling so gutted not to at least have got 4 tries against England.

Somebody mentioned that the next phase for this Scotland team is actually performing when there is some expectation. We need to go out against Italy looking for a bonus point win and not be afraid of that.

Could be an interesting side though if the fitness of Gray, Wilson, Russell, Jones, Bennet, Hogg (is that the correct list? couldn't be a whole lot closer to a list of our most key players) is up in the air.

[Big D]

Yeah that's the players plus seymour.

Worst case we could be missing as many as 8 1st choice players from the 1st choice XV if you include the props and discount Bennett as 1st choice.