England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45

[Mellsblue]

Horses for courses or lipstick on a pig.....we shall see.

Harsh on pigs.

[TheDasher]

I may have gone for Roebuck over Sleightholme for this one to be honest... And Freeman at 15. George on the bench makes no sense... Rodd over Baxter for sure too. I anticipate a gutsy loss with France pulling away strongly in the third quarter. Lot's of attacking promise from England but overpowered and never looking like winning.

You could argue that we beat Ireland at HQ last year, lost to NZ by missing a drop goal etc so might not be too far off... I just have a bad feeling that this team are starting to forget what winning feels like and morale might be on the floor, despite what they say to the press.

[fivepointer]

Dan would offer more impact from the bench. Possibly Rodd and AOF would too. Think the back 5 reserves are fine but going down the 6:2 route meant we had to pick someone who could cover multiple positions. Hence Daly.

Yeah cause this is the game to throw on our smallest possible front row. Rodd is 50/50 at scrum time, he's improved an awful lot but he's not going to be scaring the absolute monsters France have. Dan loses out to the more experienced guys, yeah I quite like him on the bench so would have quite liked him there but see where Simple Ballwin is going in wanting George's leadership in the second half and hopefully his quality lineout throwing. AOF has one cap and has been overplayed by Sale this season. The 6N is a good way for him to learn in camp and to push a rest on his body not force him to scrummage and tackle some of the biggest and best forwards the NH has to offer. He's giving away two stone to our other tightheads who are smaller than the French monsters.

And Baxter will? On the other side I'm happy to see Heyes get opportunities but I doubt his inclusion will cause the French props much anxiety.

[p/d]

And Baxter will?

Never underestimate a baby faced assassin! Bigger men have been felled by complacency.

[FKAS]

And Baxter will?

Never underestimate a baby faced assassin! Bigger men have been felled by complacency.

This. Baxter has managed to cause a few upsets at scrum time. His tackle technique is good as well, favouring the low chop which will probably help in this one.

[FKAS]

I would have been running endless training sessions with Ford at 9. And no I’m not joking

You'd want him tackling Dupont?

He won’t have to. They will sub him off once they are 36 plus points to the good.

Can't see them subbing him of after only 15 minutes.

[p/d]

You'd want him tackling Dupont?

He won’t have to. They will sub him off once they are 36 plus points to the good.

Can't see them subbing him of after only 15 minutes.

[LongForgotten]

Coming late to the Martin/Chessum discussion, I don't think it's helpful to compare the contributions in the loose of a lock and a flanker. The flanker should always be contributing a lot more there.

Agree it's hard to assess how much Martin is bringing to the scrum and maul but Itoje seems to have been freed to do the things he's exceptional at.

[Banquo]

Coming late to the Martin/Chessum discussion, I don't think it's helpful to compare the contributions in the loose of a lock and a flanker. The flanker should always be contributing a lot more there.

Agree it's hard to assess how much Martin is bringing to the scrum and maul but Itoje seems to have been freed to do the things he's exceptional at.

Think it was more comparing them as the partner to Itoje in the row.

[jngf]

From squad selected, love the backrow, nice to see a flier at 7

I am also hoping Earl is given the scope to play his attacking game and effectively be an extra centre to help out Slade and Lawrence ( God knows they’ll need it! ) - I actually think Earl’s a much better fetcher than many give him credit for but don’t expect him to be a Kamikazee kid - T Curry can look after that nicely at 6


Genge, Martin and Slade all need big performances to justify Swimming Backwards’ ongoing faith in them

[LongForgotten]

Coming late to the Martin/Chessum discussion, I don't think it's helpful to compare the contributions in the loose of a lock and a flanker. The flanker should always be contributing a lot more there.

Agree it's hard to assess how much Martin is bringing to the scrum and maul but Itoje seems to have been freed to do the things he's exceptional at.

Think it was more comparing them as the partner to Itoje in the row.

Fair, just an extremely sensitive topic for me having been dropped for similar reasons 10+ years ago!

I think the Itoje-Martin partnership is quite a bit better but Chessum is a very good option at 6 or as a replacement.

[Banquo]

Coming late to the Martin/Chessum discussion, I don't think it's helpful to compare the contributions in the loose of a lock and a flanker. The flanker should always be contributing a lot more there.

Agree it's hard to assess how much Martin is bringing to the scrum and maul but Itoje seems to have been freed to do the things he's exceptional at.

Think it was more comparing them as the partner to Itoje in the row.

Fair, just an extremely sensitive topic for me having been dropped for similar reasons 10+ years ago!

I think the Itoje-Martin partnership is quite a bit better but Chessum is a very good option at 6 or as a replacement.

....handily, Sterile Bivalve agrees!

[LongForgotten]

Think it was more comparing them as the partner to Itoje in the row.

Fair, just an extremely sensitive topic for me having been dropped for similar reasons 10+ years ago!

I think the Itoje-Martin partnership is quite a bit better but Chessum is a very good option at 6 or as a replacement.

....handily, Sterile Bivalve agrees!

IBWT!

[Oakboy]

According to the BBC IFW decided surgery was not necessary and he could be back before the end of the 6N.

[jngf]

According to the BBC IFW decided surgery was not necessary and he could be back before the end of the 6N.

Surely that should be a medical call? A bit like concussion assessments

[Which Tyler]

Patient preference trumps all other considerations. "Your body, your rules" isn't just for sex
He's also a medical student, so will be able to speak the same language as the medics.

[Banquo]

Patient preference trumps all other considerations. "Your body, your rules" isn't just for sex
He's also a medical student, so will be able to speak the same language as the medics.

Hopefully he will rehab it properly too.

[Oakboy]

So, selection is not the reason we lose, should we do so. Nothing I have read (here or elsewhere) puts forward any fundamental changes that would be significantly better. We all have preferences but that's all they are. That means that there are two ways of not winning: 1. The coaching is not good enough; 2. The team (no matter how good the coaching) just is not good enough. Either way, I just hope that SB gets a convincing 80 minute performance with all 23 giving their all. If mistakes and penalties are kept to a minimum that would be good. Let's hope on Sunday we are discussing a win or a best-possible performance. Either will do. I don't think we have had many (any) 'best-possibles' under SB so far.

[Which Tyler]

I think we all acknowledge that France are a better team than England... don't we?

What would a combined team look like? 15 Frenchmen?

[FKAS]

I think we all acknowledge that France are a better team than England... don't we?

What would a combined team look like? 15 Frenchmen?

Itoje for Roumat is an easy call. Otherwise pretty much. If Lawrence plays as well as he did last weekend France's outside centre might lose out, he's decent but not as outstanding as some of their other options (watch him score a sodding hat trick now I've said that).

[p/d]

I think we all acknowledge that France are a better team than England... don't we?

What would a combined team look like? 15 Frenchmen?

Itoje for Roumat is an easy call. Otherwise pretty much. If Lawrence plays as well as he did last weekend France's outside centre might lose out, he's decent but not as outstanding as some of their other options (watch him score a sodding hat trick now I've said that).

I’d be more worried about Roumat giving us the run around. Marvellous player.

[FKAS]

I think we all acknowledge that France are a better team than England... don't we?

What would a combined team look like? 15 Frenchmen?

Itoje for Roumat is an easy call. Otherwise pretty much. If Lawrence plays as well as he did last weekend France's outside centre might lose out, he's decent but not as outstanding as some of their other options (watch him score a sodding hat trick now I've said that).

I’d be more worried about Roumat giving us the run around. Marvellous player.

Very good backrow, looked way off the pace at lock for France last weekend. Understandable as it's not a position he plays normally.

[jngf]

Itoje for Roumat is an easy call. Otherwise pretty much. If Lawrence plays as well as he did last weekend France's outside centre might lose out, he's decent but not as outstanding as some of their other options (watch him score a sodding hat trick now I've said that).

I’d be more worried about Roumat giving us the run around. Marvellous player.

Very good backrow, looked way off the pace at lock for France last weekend. Understandable as it's not a position he plays normally.

His dad played lock for France and No.8 at Club level

[Puja]

Patient preference trumps all other considerations. "Your body, your rules" isn't just for sex
He's also a medical student, so will be able to speak the same language as the medics.

Hopefully he will rehab it properly too.

I'm worried that he's taking a risk for the short-term benefit. He wants to get on the Lions tour and knows that's less likely if he doesn't play in the 6N, especially with Exeter out of Europe and being crap in the Prem. I worry the correct route is the surgery and he's going to damage his long-term career by forgoing that in favour of trying to make the Lions.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Patient preference trumps all other considerations. "Your body, your rules" isn't just for sex
He's also a medical student, so will be able to speak the same language as the medics.

Hopefully he will rehab it properly too.

I'm worried that he's taking a risk for the short-term benefit. He wants to get on the Lions tour and knows that's less likely if he doesn't play in the 6N, especially with Exeter out of Europe and being crap in the Prem. I worry the correct route is the surgery and he's going to damage his long-term career by forgoing that in favour of trying to make the Lions.

Puja

Agreed to a point. The report I read said that he was yet to begin full contact training. Only at that stage can a full assessment make sense. Either way, he is an intelligent guy fully aware of all scenarios. He is surrounded by good rugby sense. If the rehab gets the all-clear, great. If not, surgery is just delayed by six weeks, presumably. I'm also not so sure that the Lions tour would have been that relevant at his age and against Australia.