How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

[Puja]

Genge as well spends as much time injured as fit. LCD as well.

Could be that Sinckler's onto a winner by limiting his game time with regular bans?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Could be that Sinckler's onto a winner by limiting his game time with regular bans?

Puja

Trialled by Marler perfected by Sinckler.

[Mellsblue]

It does matter where they play, i.e. high level or Bedford, as the pressure being applied in the scrum is likely to differ. And if just from the modern props we're running into a problem with Corbs, Thomas, possibly Auterac and Catt, maybe not Woodman as I seem to recall a gym accident, then it does seem a too higher number of incidents, and there are likely other players with ongoing problems that are to some degree being managed

Just finished watching Chris Cook at under 18 level. He spends awful lot of time passing to his IC from the base of rucks. No wonder Bath moved him to scrumhalf.

If you’re counting LV Cup games then you should count Champ games. I’d wager a lot of Champ scrums put more weight through joints than those in the LV Cup. I’d imagine there would also be a decent amount more non-linear pressure/movement as the wily old prop teaches the new, young upstart a trick or two. This would even more and a different type of pressure on joints. If you’re going to say quality/level matters then you’d need to weight the mins for the different tournaments, then the different quality of teams in that tournament, then the quality of the opposition scrum/props and the amount of scrums per game.........

[Which Tyler]

Yes - as mentioned in the OP.
However, as that's literally impossible, I didn't try.

[Mellsblue]

Yes - as mentioned in the OP.
However, as that's literally impossible, I didn't try.

Yes, I know. Was just responding to Diggers’ late hit.

[Which Tyler]

Yes - as mentioned in the OP.
However, as that's literally impossible, I didn't try.

Yes, I know. Was just responding to Diggers’ late hit.

fairy nuff

[Which Tyler]

FFS
https://archive.ph/3odXt

Time to fast-track young generation of England powerhouse front-rowers

After delivering a ferocious display of forward play to win world title, the future of U20s now rests on whether their clubs are prepared to back youth in the Gallagher Premiership

[Scrumhead]

I hate to defend Jones, but the headline is very misleading.

In fact, towards the end, it seems to advocate players who peak later having not made a mark in age grade rugby and seems to suggest players are missed or written off if they haven’t come through this pathway. I actually agree with him there (which usually doesn’t happen).

I think this is actually pretty accurate. There must be a decent few (both ex-U20 and otherwise), who are under-utilised across the Premiership and definitely some slightly older ones who were dismissed because they aren’t particularly active in the loose. We could do with finding a few Ben Moon types to hold the fort while the promising crop of young props mature at the right rate.

[Banquo]

I think this is actually pretty accurate. There must be a decent few (both ex-U20 and otherwise), who are under-utilised across the Premiership and definitely some slightly older ones who were dismissed because they aren’t particularly active in the loose. We could do with finding a few Ben Moon types to hold the fort while the promising crop of young props mature at the right rate.

see other thread as this is a pertinent subset.

Archie Vanes would be an interesting case study.

[FKAS]

I think this is actually pretty accurate. There must be a decent few (both ex-U20 and otherwise), who are under-utilised across the Premiership and definitely some slightly older ones who were dismissed because they aren’t particularly active in the loose. We could do with finding a few Ben Moon types to hold the fort while the promising crop of young props mature at the right rate.

see other thread as this is a pertinent subset.

Archie Vanes would be an interesting case study.

Vanes looked like he was breaking through in the season but then picked up an injury. Real shame as his showing away in France in the Champions Cup was very good.

[Banquo]

I think this is actually pretty accurate. There must be a decent few (both ex-U20 and otherwise), who are under-utilised across the Premiership and definitely some slightly older ones who were dismissed because they aren’t particularly active in the loose. We could do with finding a few Ben Moon types to hold the fort while the promising crop of young props mature at the right rate.

see other thread as this is a pertinent subset.

Archie Vanes would be an interesting case study.

Vanes looked like he was breaking through in the season but then picked up an injury. Real shame as his showing away in France in the Champions Cup was very good.

yep, I know cos he played for us at the end of the season.....randomly, tbh...having previously turned out for nottingham. Planned development?

[FKAS]

see other thread as this is a pertinent subset.

Archie Vanes would be an interesting case study.

Vanes looked like he was breaking through in the season but then picked up an injury. Real shame as his showing away in France in the Champions Cup was very good.

yep, I know cos he played for us at the end of the season.....randomly, tbh...having previously turned out for nottingham. Planned development?

Probably just wanted to get him game time to post injury. Tigers have generally sent development players to wherever they'd get game time. How'd he get on?

[Banquo]

Vanes looked like he was breaking through in the season but then picked up an injury. Real shame as his showing away in France in the Champions Cup was very good.

yep, I know cos he played for us at the end of the season.....randomly, tbh...having previously turned out for nottingham. Planned development?

Probably just wanted to get him game time to post injury. Tigers have generally sent development players to wherever they'd get game time. How'd he get on?

Pretty good, tough lad. Though he did bring a dose of scrum pox with him.

My point is that the likes of him, Veerden, Hobson…,all u20s bounce around the champ without an obvious plan.. see other thread. Hopefully that will change.

See also Sam Edwards albeit a 9

[FKAS]

yep, I know cos he played for us at the end of the season.....randomly, tbh...having previously turned out for nottingham. Planned development?

Probably just wanted to get him game time to post injury. Tigers have generally sent development players to wherever they'd get game time. How'd he get on?

Pretty good, tough lad. Though he did bring a dose of scrum pox with him.

My point is that the likes of him, Veerden, Hobson…,all u20s bounce around the champ without an obvious plan.. see other thread. Hopefully that will change.

See also Sam Edwards albeit a 9

Well I'd hope that Archie Vanes and FTT will both surpass Charlie Clare pretty swiftly this season. Will put them second and third in the pecking order behind Montoya who's one of the best in the world and who will also miss the first third of each season because of the Rugby Championship so game time should be there for them.

Sam Edwards should have had more game time. Looking at the make up of the squad going into this season he's missed out because of the reduction in squad numbers and Whiteley is able to play both 9 and in an emergency 10. Personally I'd have let Whiteley go and given more game time to Edwards then tried to keep Morgan Meredith who won the BUCS with Loughborough Uni.

[Banquo]

Probably just wanted to get him game time to post injury. Tigers have generally sent development players to wherever they'd get game time. How'd he get on?

Pretty good, tough lad. Though he did bring a dose of scrum pox with him.

My point is that the likes of him, Veerden, Hobson…,all u20s bounce around the champ without an obvious plan.. see other thread. Hopefully that will change.

See also Sam Edwards albeit a 9

Well I'd hope that Archie Vanes and FTT will both surpass Charlie Clare pretty swiftly this season. Will put them second and third in the pecking order behind Montoya who's one of the best in the world and who will also miss the first third of each season because of the Rugby Championship so game time should be there for them.

Sam Edwards should have had more game time. Looking at the make up of the squad going into this season he's missed out because of the reduction in squad numbers and Whiteley is able to play both 9 and in an emergency 10. Personally I'd have let Whiteley go and given more game time to Edwards then tried to keep Morgan Meredith who won the BUCS with Loughborough Uni.

....its all making my point for me. These guys need a dev plan, with check points, as soon as they are ready for senior rugby; the amount of time and money spent developing them to age 19 should not be wasted. Fingers crossed that Conor comes up with the pathway asap.

[FKAS]

Pretty good, tough lad. Though he did bring a dose of scrum pox with him.

My point is that the likes of him, Veerden, Hobson…,all u20s bounce around the champ without an obvious plan.. see other thread. Hopefully that will change.

See also Sam Edwards albeit a 9

Well I'd hope that Archie Vanes and FTT will both surpass Charlie Clare pretty swiftly this season. Will put them second and third in the pecking order behind Montoya who's one of the best in the world and who will also miss the first third of each season because of the Rugby Championship so game time should be there for them.

Sam Edwards should have had more game time. Looking at the make up of the squad going into this season he's missed out because of the reduction in squad numbers and Whiteley is able to play both 9 and in an emergency 10. Personally I'd have let Whiteley go and given more game time to Edwards then tried to keep Morgan Meredith who won the BUCS with Loughborough Uni.

....its all making my point for me. These guys need a dev plan, with check points, as soon as they are ready for senior rugby; the amount of time and money spent developing them to age 19 should not be wasted. Fingers crossed that Conor comes up with the pathway asap.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, there's a real need for an age grade comp to develop these guys with regular game time as they breakthrough.

I'm sure they have development plans but how effective those are is bound to be hit and miss when you are required to look to lower league clubs to provide a platform to do so. Those lower league and Uni sides have their own priorities that aren't ensuring that the young talents are going to flourish in the Prem for the next decade. It might well be a by-product of those sides desire to do well in the short term but it's not a smooth development pathway.

[Banquo]

Well I'd hope that Archie Vanes and FTT will both surpass Charlie Clare pretty swiftly this season. Will put them second and third in the pecking order behind Montoya who's one of the best in the world and who will also miss the first third of each season because of the Rugby Championship so game time should be there for them.

Sam Edwards should have had more game time. Looking at the make up of the squad going into this season he's missed out because of the reduction in squad numbers and Whiteley is able to play both 9 and in an emergency 10. Personally I'd have let Whiteley go and given more game time to Edwards then tried to keep Morgan Meredith who won the BUCS with Loughborough Uni.

....its all making my point for me. These guys need a dev plan, with check points, as soon as they are ready for senior rugby; the amount of time and money spent developing them to age 19 should not be wasted. Fingers crossed that Conor comes up with the pathway asap.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, there's a real need for an age grade comp to develop these guys with regular game time as they breakthrough.

I'm sure they have development plans but how effective those are is bound to be hit and miss when you are required to look to lower league clubs to provide a platform to do so. Those lower league and Uni sides have their own priorities that aren't ensuring that the young talents are going to flourish in the Prem for the next decade. It might well be a by-product of those sides desire to do well in the short term but it's not a smooth development pathway.

This is specifically for the England U20's group and COS has secured funding to place them with Champ clubs and elsewhere for 25/26. Maybe these priorities need to align with the greater good, easier said than done I know. But Prem clubs rinsing and repeating with ancient and journeyman players doesn't cut it. I think if you showcase young talent in a senior environment it'll have more commercial pull than an age grade league tbh, plus less overhead.

[FKAS]

....its all making my point for me. These guys need a dev plan, with check points, as soon as they are ready for senior rugby; the amount of time and money spent developing them to age 19 should not be wasted. Fingers crossed that Conor comes up with the pathway asap.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, there's a real need for an age grade comp to develop these guys with regular game time as they breakthrough.

I'm sure they have development plans but how effective those are is bound to be hit and miss when you are required to look to lower league clubs to provide a platform to do so. Those lower league and Uni sides have their own priorities that aren't ensuring that the young talents are going to flourish in the Prem for the next decade. It might well be a by-product of those sides desire to do well in the short term but it's not a smooth development pathway.

This is specifically for the England U20's group and COS has secured funding to place them with Champ clubs and elsewhere for 25/26. Maybe these priorities need to align with the greater good, easier said than done I know. But Prem clubs rinsing and repeating with ancient and journeyman players doesn't cut it. I think if you showcase young talent in a senior environment it'll have more commercial pull than an age grade league tbh, plus less overhead.

It's a nice theory but if the young guys are getting slaughtered on the European stage or we're seeing them get hung out to dry by the journeymen remaining in the Prem it's not going to go well.

It's a very tough rope to walk. You want to bring through the next generation but at the same time keep the quality in the Prem as high as you can. The young talent has to be brought up to the quality of senior rugby and not senior rugby brought down to the level of age grade.

More dual reg and loan time for Champ and Nat League sides is fine but it's a competitive environment. DOR/HCs at that level will only be interested in young players that can help their side win games now. "You've got an exciting prospect at 10? I don't care he's not as reliable as the journeyman I've got so he can sit on the bench." Is exactly the type of result we don't want.

[Banquo]

As I've mentioned in the other thread, there's a real need for an age grade comp to develop these guys with regular game time as they breakthrough.

I'm sure they have development plans but how effective those are is bound to be hit and miss when you are required to look to lower league clubs to provide a platform to do so. Those lower league and Uni sides have their own priorities that aren't ensuring that the young talents are going to flourish in the Prem for the next decade. It might well be a by-product of those sides desire to do well in the short term but it's not a smooth development pathway.

This is specifically for the England U20's group and COS has secured funding to place them with Champ clubs and elsewhere for 25/26. Maybe these priorities need to align with the greater good, easier said than done I know. But Prem clubs rinsing and repeating with ancient and journeyman players doesn't cut it. I think if you showcase young talent in a senior environment it'll have more commercial pull than an age grade league tbh, plus less overhead.

It's a nice theory but if the young guys are getting slaughtered on the European stage or we're seeing them get hung out to dry by the journeymen remaining in the Prem it's not going to go well.

It's a very tough rope to walk. You want to bring through the next generation but at the same time keep the quality in the Prem as high as you can. The young talent has to be brought up to the quality of senior rugby and not senior rugby brought down to the level of age grade.

More dual reg and loan time for Champ and Nat League sides is fine but it's a competitive environment. DOR/HCs at that level will only be interested in young players that can help their side win games now. "You've got an exciting prospect at 10? I don't care he's not as reliable as the journeyman I've got so he can sit on the bench." Is exactly the type of result we don't want.

Its not a binary debate......and something has to be done. Besides, ...again...its not just about the Prem, and its about 25 or so players a year. Anyway, I think the plans look a lot better than today. But whilst minds are so parochial it will be tricky.

35+12 will certainly focus minds, as will imminent bankrupcy when the covid loans are called in.

[FKAS]

This is specifically for the England U20's group and COS has secured funding to place them with Champ clubs and elsewhere for 25/26. Maybe these priorities need to align with the greater good, easier said than done I know. But Prem clubs rinsing and repeating with ancient and journeyman players doesn't cut it. I think if you showcase young talent in a senior environment it'll have more commercial pull than an age grade league tbh, plus less overhead.

It's a nice theory but if the young guys are getting slaughtered on the European stage or we're seeing them get hung out to dry by the journeymen remaining in the Prem it's not going to go well.

It's a very tough rope to walk. You want to bring through the next generation but at the same time keep the quality in the Prem as high as you can. The young talent has to be brought up to the quality of senior rugby and not senior rugby brought down to the level of age grade.

More dual reg and loan time for Champ and Nat League sides is fine but it's a competitive environment. DOR/HCs at that level will only be interested in young players that can help their side win games now. "You've got an exciting prospect at 10? I don't care he's not as reliable as the journeyman I've got so he can sit on the bench." Is exactly the type of result we don't want.

Its not a binary debate......and something has to be done. Besides, ...again...its not just about the Prem, and its about 25 or so players a year. Anyway, I think the plans look a lot better than today. But whilst minds are so parochial it will be tricky.

35+12 will certainly focus minds, as will imminent bankrupcy when the covid loans are called in.

Oh aye the COVID loans are a huge issue.

I think we are all in agreement that something needs to be done and that things are moving in the right direction. How to pick up speed and keep things going in that positive direction is where we might have differing ideas.

[Banquo]

It's a nice theory but if the young guys are getting slaughtered on the European stage or we're seeing them get hung out to dry by the journeymen remaining in the Prem it's not going to go well.

It's a very tough rope to walk. You want to bring through the next generation but at the same time keep the quality in the Prem as high as you can. The young talent has to be brought up to the quality of senior rugby and not senior rugby brought down to the level of age grade.

More dual reg and loan time for Champ and Nat League sides is fine but it's a competitive environment. DOR/HCs at that level will only be interested in young players that can help their side win games now. "You've got an exciting prospect at 10? I don't care he's not as reliable as the journeyman I've got so he can sit on the bench." Is exactly the type of result we don't want.

Its not a binary debate......and something has to be done. Besides, ...again...its not just about the Prem, and its about 25 or so players a year. Anyway, I think the plans look a lot better than today. But whilst minds are so parochial it will be tricky.

35+12 will certainly focus minds, as will imminent bankrupcy when the covid loans are called in.

Oh aye the COVID loans are a huge issue.

I think we are all in agreement that something needs to be done and that things are moving in the right direction. How to pick up speed and keep things going in that positive direction is where we might have differing ideas.

Its not so much me having differing ideas as what the RFU are doing and thinking, which is material, and materially different to the current wild west.

[Beasties]

Seems as appropriate place as any to put this. Former prop here.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -of-year0/

12ft ladder etc…