fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 5:22 pm
Chessum and Willis to start is the way i'd go. Hill on the bench is a definite yes.
No point in having Randall in the squad if you're going to endlessly kick. Thats not his game. Murley's a tough one. Hate to see a guy scapegoated when he did make some positive contributions.
Definitely a 5:3 bench with back 3 cover.
Is it a risk-taking time? If so, I'd certainly go with Quirke on the bench, if fit, and p/d's suggestion of Daly at 15 is better than moving Marcus there. In the past Daly has been ordinary defensively at FB but the 'no guards' law change should help him.
I'd stay with Marcus at 10. I think he was exposed by the 'three 7s' selection and Mitchell not being at his best.
Steward and Murley should not be in the 23. It's tough at the top and both can get themselves back in contention later if they are good enough.
I'm not convinced by Hill yet but I'd have him on the bench with CCS, T Curry and Willis starting. I'd also have Chessum on the bench with the same front five forwards starting.
I think B Curry is a better openside than his brother, especially these days. For me post around 2019 Tom Curry has looked more comfortable and dynamic as a blindside than he does at openside
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
by Stom
Did Marcus Smith have a particularly bad game? I thought he was heavily involved in the first 20, and then disappeared completely. Judged in isolation, that's poor. But it's a team game, and every player disappeared after 20...
I'm just struggling to look at the way the game went and think that any change to playing personnel is going to improve that unless we can clone Dupont, Mauvaku, and Fikou and get them to be English...
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:08 am
by Mellsblue
Stom wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
Did Marcus Smith have a particularly bad game? I thought he was heavily involved in the first 20, and then disappeared completely. Judged in isolation, that's poor. But it's a team game, and every player disappeared after 20...
I'm just struggling to look at the way the game went and think that any change to playing personnel is going to improve that unless we can clone Dupont, Mauvaku, and Fikou and get them to be English...
I find it a weird take as well. Especially given he’s spent the last 6 months being accused of hampering the centres despite/due to being the only bright spark but now the centres have a good game he’s been quiet. For me, he had that break in the first 10/15 mins that was wide open but I’m not sure the two other 10s have the pace to fully exploit, he was critical to getting Eng in to position for the first try and if Ford or Smith had hit Earl with that double miss pass for his line break then the board would have, correctly, combusted. I’m sure there were other big involvements and I think his game management and probing of Ireland’s defensive line was pretty good.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 5:22 pm
Chessum and Willis to start is the way i'd go. Hill on the bench is a definite yes.
No point in having Randall in the squad if you're going to endlessly kick. Thats not his game. Murley's a tough one. Hate to see a guy scapegoated when he did make some positive contributions.
Definitely a 5:3 bench with back 3 cover.
Is it a risk-taking time? If so, I'd certainly go with Quirke on the bench, if fit, and p/d's suggestion of Daly at 15 is better than moving Marcus there. In the past Daly has been ordinary defensively at FB but the 'no guards' law change should help him.
I'd stay with Marcus at 10. I think he was exposed by the 'three 7s' selection and Mitchell not being at his best.
Steward and Murley should not be in the 23. It's tough at the top and both can get themselves back in contention later if they are good enough.
I'm not convinced by Hill yet but I'd have him on the bench with CCS, T Curry and Willis starting. I'd also have Chessum on the bench with the same front five forwards starting.
I think B Curry is a better openside than his brother, especially these days. For me post around 2019 Tom Curry has looked more comfortable and dynamic as a blindside than he does at openside
Neither they nor Earl would get into Ireland or France's 23. You could argue that they would not enter the minds of Scotland's selectors either. I'd pick Reffell ahead of all three and he was considered not good enough to start for Wales. SB's squad selection means one has to start against France. I don't really care which but would certainly omit two of them. Earl might be an adequate bench replacement if it's a 6:2 but not if it's 5:3.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:15 am
by Scrumhead
Marcus was fine.
As you say, he was good for the first 20. He definitely ‘disappeared’ for the next 10mins because he was in the sin bin. Obviously a yellow card isn’t good, but it wasn’t a bad or even ‘stupid’ offence. He essentially took one for he team in preventing a likely try. Probably wouldn’t have been a yellow had we not been on a warning.
Last 10 of the first half he was fine and also for the opening sequence of the second.
Getting bumped by Aki for the try wasn’t great, but as I said in a previous post, he isn’t the first and won’t be the last player that happens to. I’d argue Mitchell and Freeman’s misses were probably worse.
Honestly, a combination of Ireland adapting and the ref getting on our case (often unfairly) totally starved us of possession in the second half. I’m not sure anything changes with another player at 10. You’re not telling me Ford makes that tackle. Maybe Fin Smith does, but far from a certainty.
Stom wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
Did Marcus Smith have a particularly bad game? I thought he was heavily involved in the first 20, and then disappeared completely. Judged in isolation, that's poor. But it's a team game, and every player disappeared after 20...
I'm just struggling to look at the way the game went and think that any change to playing personnel is going to improve that unless we can clone Dupont, Mauvaku, and Fikou and get them to be English...
I find it a weird take as well. Especially given he’s spent the last 6 months being accused of hampering the centres despite/due to being the only bright spark but now the centres have a good game he’s been quiet. For me, he had that break in the first 10/15 mins that was wide open but I’m not sure the two other 10s have the pace to fully exploit, he was critical to getting Eng in to position for the first try and if Ford or Smith had hit Earl with that double miss pass for his line break then the board would have, correctly, combusted. I’m sure there were other big involvements and I think his game management and probing of Ireland’s defensive line was pretty good.
I don't think Mitchell will have that bad a game again. To not pick the same 9/10 combo would be a bad mistake. Backs' changes should be restricted to two of the back three. Freeman has not set the game alight over the last 5 or 6 games but he looked more his competitive self again - encouragingly.
Is it a risk-taking time? If so, I'd certainly go with Quirke on the bench, if fit, and p/d's suggestion of Daly at 15 is better than moving Marcus there. In the past Daly has been ordinary defensively at FB but the 'no guards' law change should help him.
I'd stay with Marcus at 10. I think he was exposed by the 'three 7s' selection and Mitchell not being at his best.
Steward and Murley should not be in the 23. It's tough at the top and both can get themselves back in contention later if they are good enough.
I'm not convinced by Hill yet but I'd have him on the bench with CCS, T Curry and Willis starting. I'd also have Chessum on the bench with the same front five forwards starting.
I think B Curry is a better openside than his brother, especially these days. For me post around 2019 Tom Curry has looked more comfortable and dynamic as a blindside than he does at openside
Neither they nor Earl would get into Ireland or France's 23. You could argue that they would not enter the minds of Scotland's selectors either. I'd pick Reffell ahead of all three and he was considered not good enough to start for Wales. SB's squad selection means one has to start against France. I don't really care which but would certainly omit two of them. Earl might be an adequate bench replacement if it's a 6:2 but not if it's 5:3.
Really not sure I agree there.
France, no. They pick very different players in the back row and none of ours really match the rangy style of Ollivon, Cros etc.
As for Ireland, at 7 I honestly don’t think van der Flier is notably better than Tom Curry. If we’re talking about form over the past 12mths then yes, but otherwise, I’d say it’s pretty even. At 6, he’s a totally different type of player to Baird, but I think he’s quite a bit better/more influential and he’s better than today’s version of POM. I could definitely see him getting in to their side or at least the 23 (probably at 6).
I think you’re seriously underrating the Currys and probably overrating Reffell and the Scottish back row players (other than Darge who I think is excellent).
Stom wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
Did Marcus Smith have a particularly bad game? I thought he was heavily involved in the first 20, and then disappeared completely. Judged in isolation, that's poor. But it's a team game, and every player disappeared after 20...
I'm just struggling to look at the way the game went and think that any change to playing personnel is going to improve that unless we can clone Dupont, Mauvaku, and Fikou and get them to be English...
I find it a weird take as well. Especially given he’s spent the last 6 months being accused of hampering the centres despite/due to being the only bright spark but now the centres have a good game he’s been quiet. For me, he had that break in the first 10/15 mins that was wide open but I’m not sure the two other 10s have the pace to fully exploit, he was critical to getting Eng in to position for the first try and if Ford or Smith had hit Earl with that double miss pass for his line break then the board would have, correctly, combusted. I’m sure there were other big involvements and I think his game management and probing of Ireland’s defensive line was pretty good.
I agree with that. Though I do think his game management needed to step up a gear. Whether or not that was due to playing SBs gameplan too rigidly, though, is up for question, so it's hard to put any blame on him, especially considering how little ball was moved on from 9. The amount of kicking was ridiculous.
One point, I feel, is that we can't really trust our tight carrying. Post contact, we're not making ground, and ball presentation has gone backward. So if we truck it up, we're on the back foot due to making no ground AND having slow ball. I can understand wanting to kick, therefore, but the emphasis needs to be on improving our play around the contact zone. Winning those initial collisions and then presenting the ball cleanly. And then getting it away.
If we're not going to do that, just pick Ford and be done with it, as he'll give us the best chance of sneaking a win in those circumstances. But I don't think that's the angle we should be taking.
Genge feels like he's fallen off a cliff in impact. So help him get that back! The coaching team needs to be finding a way to get the most out of individuals, and I just do not see that with Borthwick.
I can't remember the football manager who talked about international football, but it's been a theme in football: internationals get less time with the squad, so your job is about atmosphere, about creating a simple, understandable gameplan, and then giving your players the right mental preparation. You cannot coach them, that's what they get week in week out at their clubs. You just prepare them mentally.
I'm not seeing this. Players seem undercooked mentally. France don't play complicated rugby, they let their best players dictate. Ireland's gameplan has been ridiculously simple for years. South Africa may have some complexity, but it's all stuff that their age grade and club teams play consistently.
Stom wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:39 am
Did Marcus Smith have a particularly bad game? I thought he was heavily involved in the first 20, and then disappeared completely. Judged in isolation, that's poor. But it's a team game, and every player disappeared after 20...
I'm just struggling to look at the way the game went and think that any change to playing personnel is going to improve that unless we can clone Dupont, Mauvaku, and Fikou and get them to be English...
I find it a weird take as well. Especially given he’s spent the last 6 months being accused of hampering the centres despite/due to being the only bright spark but now the centres have a good game he’s been quiet. For me, he had that break in the first 10/15 mins that was wide open but I’m not sure the two other 10s have the pace to fully exploit, he was critical to getting Eng in to position for the first try and if Ford or Smith had hit Earl with that double miss pass for his line break then the board would have, correctly, combusted. I’m sure there were other big involvements and I think his game management and probing of Ireland’s defensive line was pretty good.
I agree with that. Though I do think his game management needed to step up a gear. Whether or not that was due to playing SBs gameplan too rigidly, though, is up for question, so it's hard to put any blame on him, especially considering how little ball was moved on from 9. The amount of kicking was ridiculous.
One point, I feel, is that we can't really trust our tight carrying. Post contact, we're not making ground, and ball presentation has gone backward. So if we truck it up, we're on the back foot due to making no ground AND having slow ball. I can understand wanting to kick, therefore, but the emphasis needs to be on improving our play around the contact zone. Winning those initial collisions and then presenting the ball cleanly. And then getting it away.
If we're not going to do that, just pick Ford and be done with it, as he'll give us the best chance of sneaking a win in those circumstances. But I don't think that's the angle we should be taking.
Genge feels like he's fallen off a cliff in impact. So help him get that back! The coaching team needs to be finding a way to get the most out of individuals, and I just do not see that with Borthwick.
I can't remember the football manager who talked about international football, but it's been a theme in football: internationals get less time with the squad, so your job is about atmosphere, about creating a simple, understandable gameplan, and then giving your players the right mental preparation. You cannot coach them, that's what they get week in week out at their clubs. You just prepare them mentally.
I'm not seeing this. Players seem undercooked mentally. France don't play complicated rugby, they let their best players dictate. Ireland's gameplan has been ridiculously simple for years. South Africa may have some complexity, but it's all stuff that their age grade and club teams play consistently.
KISS!
The kicking is definitely due to Slaveto Ballkicking and despite the numerous case studies that it isn’t working I can’t see it changing. I think Spreadsheet Bore knows we need to be more expansive but he and the Wigmeister General don’t now how to make it happen across a full match so when we’re under the cosh it’s time to hoick the ball in the air.
Tight carrying is poor but they’re just so static and it seems so fecking obvious to point out when it’s what I spend Wednesday evenings and Sunday mornings imploring my M&J players not to do but it’s true. I’m again guessing that’s a safety first approach and to allow the tip/out the back option but sometimes you just need to run up the guts at pace and when they try that approach it’s not dynamic enough.
I’m farking exasperated that we seem to be treading water for so long with no improvement but only repetition of the same failings.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:12 am
by FKAS
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:55 pm
I think it’s all rather depressing that our options for 15 are an oil tanker, a geriatric who we moaned about playing there when he was fast and a flyhalf who once played there cos Suicidal Benchselection fecked up again.
Looks like I’ll be wearing my beret next weekend surrounded by posters of Carla Bruni, Vanessa Paradis and Audrey Tautou. Zut alors.
I find it a weird take as well. Especially given he’s spent the last 6 months being accused of hampering the centres despite/due to being the only bright spark but now the centres have a good game he’s been quiet. For me, he had that break in the first 10/15 mins that was wide open but I’m not sure the two other 10s have the pace to fully exploit, he was critical to getting Eng in to position for the first try and if Ford or Smith had hit Earl with that double miss pass for his line break then the board would have, correctly, combusted. I’m sure there were other big involvements and I think his game management and probing of Ireland’s defensive line was pretty good.
I agree with that. Though I do think his game management needed to step up a gear. Whether or not that was due to playing SBs gameplan too rigidly, though, is up for question, so it's hard to put any blame on him, especially considering how little ball was moved on from 9. The amount of kicking was ridiculous.
One point, I feel, is that we can't really trust our tight carrying. Post contact, we're not making ground, and ball presentation has gone backward. So if we truck it up, we're on the back foot due to making no ground AND having slow ball. I can understand wanting to kick, therefore, but the emphasis needs to be on improving our play around the contact zone. Winning those initial collisions and then presenting the ball cleanly. And then getting it away.
If we're not going to do that, just pick Ford and be done with it, as he'll give us the best chance of sneaking a win in those circumstances. But I don't think that's the angle we should be taking.
Genge feels like he's fallen off a cliff in impact. So help him get that back! The coaching team needs to be finding a way to get the most out of individuals, and I just do not see that with Borthwick.
I can't remember the football manager who talked about international football, but it's been a theme in football: internationals get less time with the squad, so your job is about atmosphere, about creating a simple, understandable gameplan, and then giving your players the right mental preparation. You cannot coach them, that's what they get week in week out at their clubs. You just prepare them mentally.
I'm not seeing this. Players seem undercooked mentally. France don't play complicated rugby, they let their best players dictate. Ireland's gameplan has been ridiculously simple for years. South Africa may have some complexity, but it's all stuff that their age grade and club teams play consistently.
KISS!
The kicking is definitely due to Slaveto Ballkicking and despite the numerous case studies that it isn’t working I can’t see it changing. I think Spreadsheet Bore knows we need to be more expansive but he and the Wigmeister General don’t now how to make it happen across a full match so when we’re under the cosh it’s time to hoick the ball in the air.
Tight carrying is poor but they’re just so static and it seems so fecking obvious to point out when it’s what I spend Wednesday evenings and Sunday mornings imploring my M&J players not to do but it’s true. I’m again guessing that’s a safety first approach and to allow the tip/out the back option but sometimes you just need to run up the guts at pace and when they try that approach it’s not dynamic enough.
I’m farking exasperated that we seem to be treading water for so long with no improvement but only repetition of the same failings.
Re Smith I've seen people say he was fine. He was brilliant for the first 20. Some of his best flyhalf play for England, yes he's done more individually brilliant things but he was actually running the backline instead of looking for opportunities for himself. A real step up in maturity there. The yellow card seemed to knock his confidence though. Never stepped back in to run the game after that.
We definitely went to the kick too early. It's a simple system to stop us over playing too much in the middle part of the field and that's fine. The half backs still call it though, and they called way to regularly. Simply Ballkick likes that option to be there but he always talks about backing his playmakers to play what they see. It's why he got on so well with Burns at Tigers. Had Mitchell and Smith chanced a couple more phases in attack in the second half before going aerial because we'd been so starved of ball, I don't think there'd have been push back. If there was pushback then someone needs to give that coach a rollicking as you can't beat any good sides by barely touching the damn ball.
I think B Curry is a better openside than his brother, especially these days. For me post around 2019 Tom Curry has looked more comfortable and dynamic as a blindside than he does at openside
Neither they nor Earl would get into Ireland or France's 23. You could argue that they would not enter the minds of Scotland's selectors either. I'd pick Reffell ahead of all three and he was considered not good enough to start for Wales. SB's squad selection means one has to start against France. I don't really care which but would certainly omit two of them. Earl might be an adequate bench replacement if it's a 6:2 but not if it's 5:3.
Really not sure I agree there.
France, no. They pick very different players in the back row and none of ours really match the rangy style of Ollivon, Cros etc.
As for Ireland, at 7 I honestly don’t think van der Flier is notably better than Tom Curry. If we’re talking about form over the past 12mths then yes, but otherwise, I’d say it’s pretty even. At 6, he’s a totally different type of player to Baird, but I think he’s quite a bit better/more influential and he’s better than today’s version of POM. I could definitely see him getting in to their side or at least the 23 (probably at 6).
I think you’re seriously underrating the Currys and probably overrating Reffell and the Scottish back row players (other than Darge who I think is excellent).
Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree, albeit marginally. Two points, I suppose. One, it IS about the current Tom Curry. He is not the player he was and the edge of his effectiveness is not there any more. Ben is a good squad player but would you say he is a Lions pick, for example? Both, in current form, are good players. I've never suggested otherwise. Top, tier-1 standard though? I don't think so but I agree that Tom used to be. Carrying that chronic hip injury, is too much probably.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:42 am
by p/d
I thought T Curry was superb on Saturday. Or, as my Irish mate said, a fecking pain in the arse
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:10 am
by Mikey Brown
Yeah, I’ve been as vocal as anyone in my concern about Tom Curry’s long term fitness/mobility and not just getting a spot on reputation, but he was class. He looked good when he last played too.
Oakboy you seem quite attached to this sentiment of England’s being absolutely fucking terrible at basically everything and having no good coaches OR players.
It’s a cumulative thing. If Borthwick and his team are really that desperately bad then these players are actually doing pretty well to keep getting LBPs against very settled, experienced, top-tier teams with generational talents. It’s a frustrating period though, for sure.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:13 am
by Mellsblue
p/d wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:42 am
I thought T Curry was superb on Saturday. Or, as my Irish mate said, a fecking pain in the arse
Agreed and said so on here straight after the match. I like him in tandem with his bro - just need a proper no8 between them in place of the inside centre currently in the jersey.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:29 am
by Oakboy
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:10 am
Oakboy you seem quite attached to this sentiment of England’s being absolutely fucking terrible at basically everything and having no good coaches OR players.
I think results are speaking for themselves. I think the team is underperforming owing to poor coaching. It is less than the sum of its parts. Selection-wise, I think we are fielding teams within 3 or 4 of the best-possible. I am not alone in suggesting that we have few if any world class players. We do have some very good ones and are not getting the best out of them.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:40 am
by Oakboy
Maybe, this is a reasonable assessment???
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:59 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:40 am
Maybe, this is a reasonable assessment???
Agree with a lot, especially about quality of player tbh. 'ordinary' is a bit harsh...but...
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:37 pm
by fivepointer
Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....
I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:07 pm
by Oakboy
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:37 pm
Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....
I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.
Agreed. I read somewhere that France's starting XV had only a few more caps than ours. That probably suggests the overall average standard is higher and that harping on about experience is daft. Players improve with encouragement in a good 'environment'. That needs work, IMO.
When IFW is missing, how many players can consistently claim, "I could not have done any better,"?
It's not just an individual thing. It is connection, anticipation, communication etc., to which all contribute. Only one guy can manufacture improvement - if he's good enough.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:07 pm
by FKAS
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:37 pm
Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....
I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.
We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.
It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:37 pm
Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....
I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.
Agreed. I read somewhere that France's starting XV had only a few more caps than ours.
Mainly due to 27 yo Roumat only having 7 caps, the back up 26 yo centre having 3 and the young winger only having 3. Brings the average down I'd have thought. Rest of the side is pretty experienced and in some cases stand out international quality. Having the best player in the world always helps as does playing an absolute basket case of a team who's aspirations are don't finish last, helps you look good.
Re: England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:15 pm
by Mikey Brown
The Telegraph reports:
Cadan Murley has emerged as a major doubt for England’s Six Nations meeting with France after picking up a foot injury during his Test debut against Ireland on Saturday.
Murley, the 25-year-old Harlequins wing, began the game in bright fashion by latching onto Henry Slade’s grubber kick to put England ahead.
However, as the game slipped away from the visitors during the second half, he committed errors in the back-field under pressure from Ireland’s kicking game.
Murley appeared to misjudge the flight of a Jamison Gibson-Park box-kick and fumbled the ball before needing to run it out of his own dead-ball area. Later, he was bundled into touch by James Lowe and Hugo Keenan after letting another kick dribble across the England try-line.
He did bounce back to set up Tom Curry for England’s third try, but seems likely to miss France’s visit to Allianz Stadium after sitting out of training on Monday at Pennyhill Park.
Despite the ongoing absence of Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, England still have plenty of viable options in the back three. Ollie Sleightholme and Tom Roebuck are two wings that Steve Borthwick could bring into his match-day squad, both of whom having impressed during the autumn.
Elliot Daly and even Freddie Steward have both started Test matches out wide. Tommy Freeman has become a regular since the 2023 World Cup and seems set to continue in the starting line-up.
Murley’s selection for round two was immediately likely to become a talking point of this week, with former England captain Will Carling jumping to the rookie’s defence after the final whistle of a 27-22 win for Ireland.
“For those throwing the mud, the truth is @cadan_murley scored a try, assisted another & made a try saving tackle, alongside other positive additions to Englands (sic) performance,” Carling posted on X. “He made a couple of mistakes, who doesn’t on their debut!! But overall, he should be proud, I hope he is.”
Sounds like that at least makes the selection/man-management element of this a bit simpler. A shame for him and I hope his head doesn't drop.
Was Sleightholme's injury just a recent thing? He hasn't been out long has he? I'm probably happy with either him or Roebuck coming in, or even both? Can Tommy remember how to play fullback? Maybe he could get more involved in that 13 channel, as we've all want to see.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:10 am
Oakboy you seem quite attached to this sentiment of England’s being absolutely fucking terrible at basically everything and having no good coaches OR players.
I think results are speaking for themselves. I think the team is underperforming owing to poor coaching. It is less than the sum of its parts. Selection-wise, I think we are fielding teams within 3 or 4 of the best-possible. I am not alone in suggesting that we have few if any world class players. We do have some very good ones and are not getting the best out of them.
I do agree in essence. The whole setup feels a bit off, but the constant derision of every single player and every element of the game just feels a bit much. In a disjointed setup I think there are plenty of world class players that wouldn't look all that. I think most on here broadly agree on a few selection changes/strategies we'd like to see, and with a sharper coaching team we could easily find ourselves saying some of those guys are up there with the best.
It can't all be that bad, that's all I'm saying. Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much, but it reads sometimes like supporting England is causing you some serious discomfort.
Maybe they don't all have a ton more caps than us, but all of SA, Ire, Fra have been through an intense period of rebuilding to get where they are and have a very clear identity in how they want to play and how that aligns with their player base. I'm not arguing Borthwick couldn't have done better though.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:37 pm
Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....
I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.
We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.
It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.
Steward had 10 touches, Freeman 8, Lawrence 7, Slade 8 and Murley 13.
Bet if you look at the last 2 years worth of game you'll find similar numbers for our backs. We simply dont get the ball in their hands anywhere near enough.