RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:I think we had a penalty advantage for the second try as well.

Easily possible, we were infringing left right and centre at that point - equally, I've slept since then, so don't remember the details.

Sandydragon wrote:
I think we had a penalty advantage for the second try as well.

That was also my understanding.

.

Sandydragon wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

oldbackrow wrote: If Wales had kicked the first penalty instead of scoring a try who knows how the game would have played out, it wouldn't have just been 6 points instead of 14. England lost, not just because of the ref but their own indiscipline.

This.
The ref really didn't help (from an England perspective); had the 2 tries not been awarded, surely only the first would have been a 3 pointer to Wales, the second would have been a scrum to England?
Either way, after about 30 minutes, we improved our discipline massively, and excessively; and clawed our way back into it, drawing level.
From there it was in our own hands, having already taken the ref out of the equation.

We then had a collective brain failure, and gave away too many penalties that were just plain stupid, rather than harsh or a result of pushing to the edge. Ultimately, the better team won, the ref may have effected the margin, but not the result.

I think we had a penalty advantage for the second try as well.

Definitely. I watched the highlights last night,

So at worst Wales could have had 8 points less. And if the ref had remembered his yellow card England would have been down to 14 men for at least 10 minutes. (Apparently it really helps Wales when they face 14 men)

If there had been a couple of points in it at the end England supporters and press would have a case. But not with a 16 point gap.

Well Nigel Owens said two tries scored by England against Italy should never have been allowed so I guess that evens things up for you.

It’s still my contention that England switched off for the first try and mostly gathered near the posts. Normally when the ref says have a word it’s done in seconds because everyone on the team knows what the score is without being told.

They had over twenty seconds and weren’t gathered for a conference and unofficial water break but for an anticipated penalty shot at the posts. They mostly had their back to Biggar, although three England players did move out to the blind side as they became aware of LRZ moving tight to the blind side touch line.

They perceived him to be the threat. Nobody saw or really bothered about Adams although two players started walking to the open side, again mostly with their backs to Biggar and probably not worried about a quick penalty.

It was smart thinking by Biggar and Adams and was a perfectly executed and legal try.

England, to use a Brian Mooreism, were DULL and much of their play fell into that category, especially in the last quarter, on Saturday.

You probably have more to complain about with Liam Williams’ try but with two (or was it three) on-field officials and the TMO reviewing the score thoroughly there’s no reason to complain. After all it’s a tenet of rugby sportsmanship to accept the ref’s decision with good grace even though the players might be seething underneath.

It would be better if England stopped complaining about the ref and started worrying about leadership on and off the field and how they address their discipline issues.

Good luck against France - you could do us a GS favour.

Given that he allowed the Biggar cross field kick in 2019 under very similar circumstances, its a bit foolish for him to now admit he got it wrong. Obviously not happy with the media coverage.

normanski wrote:Well Nigel Owens said two tries scored by England against Italy should never have been allowed so I guess that evens things up for you.

It’s still my contention that England switched off for the first try and mostly gathered near the posts. Normally when the ref says have a word it’s done in seconds because everyone on the team knows what the score is without being told.

They had over twenty seconds and weren’t gathered for a conference and unofficial water break but for an anticipated penalty shot at the posts. They mostly had their back to Biggar, although three England players did move out to the blind side as they became aware of LRZ moving tight to the blind side touch line.

They perceived him to be the threat. Nobody saw or really bothered about Adams although two players started walking to the open side, again mostly with their backs to Biggar and probably not worried about a quick penalty.

It was smart thinking by Biggar and Adams and was a perfectly executed and legal try.

England, to use a Brian Mooreism, were DULL and much of their play fell into that category, especially in the last quarter, on Saturday.

You probably have more to complain about with Liam Williams’ try but with two (or was it three) on-field officials and the TMO reviewing the score thoroughly there’s no reason to complain. After all it’s a tenet of rugby sportsmanship to accept the ref’s decision with good grace even though the players might be seething underneath.

It would be better if England stopped complaining about the ref and started worrying about leadership on and off the field and how they address their discipline issues.

Good luck against France - you could do us a GS favour.

This 100%. Although I'm not sure about the last line. Whilst if England beat France we could get the championship a bit easier, I'm thinking about how much more of a flat spin the English media will get into if they lose to France and Ireland.

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote:Well Nigel Owens said two tries scored by England against Italy should never have been allowed so I guess that evens things up for you.

It’s still my contention that England switched off for the first try and mostly gathered near the posts. Normally when the ref says have a word it’s done in seconds because everyone on the team knows what the score is without being told.

They had over twenty seconds and weren’t gathered for a conference and unofficial water break but for an anticipated penalty shot at the posts. They mostly had their back to Biggar, although three England players did move out to the blind side as they became aware of LRZ moving tight to the blind side touch line.

They perceived him to be the threat. Nobody saw or really bothered about Adams although two players started walking to the open side, again mostly with their backs to Biggar and probably not worried about a quick penalty.

It was smart thinking by Biggar and Adams and was a perfectly executed and legal try.

England, to use a Brian Mooreism, were DULL and much of their play fell into that category, especially in the last quarter, on Saturday.

You probably have more to complain about with Liam Williams’ try but with two (or was it three) on-field officials and the TMO reviewing the score thoroughly there’s no reason to complain. After all it’s a tenet of rugby sportsmanship to accept the ref’s decision with good grace even though the players might be seething underneath.

It would be better if England stopped complaining about the ref and started worrying about leadership on and off the field and how they address their discipline issues.

Good luck against France - you could do us a GS favour.

This 100%. Although I'm not sure about the last line. Whilst if England beat France we could get the championship a bit easier, I'm thinking about how much more of a flat spin the English media will get into if they lose to France and Ireland.

I was trying to exercise my good sportsmanship in best rugby fashion at a time of great sorrow for England supporters!

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote:Well Nigel Owens said two tries scored by England against Italy should never have been allowed so I guess that evens things up for you.

It’s still my contention that England switched off for the first try and mostly gathered near the posts. Normally when the ref says have a word it’s done in seconds because everyone on the team knows what the score is without being told.

They had over twenty seconds and weren’t gathered for a conference and unofficial water break but for an anticipated penalty shot at the posts. They mostly had their back to Biggar, although three England players did move out to the blind side as they became aware of LRZ moving tight to the blind side touch line.

They perceived him to be the threat. Nobody saw or really bothered about Adams although two players started walking to the open side, again mostly with their backs to Biggar and probably not worried about a quick penalty.

It was smart thinking by Biggar and Adams and was a perfectly executed and legal try.

England, to use a Brian Mooreism, were DULL and much of their play fell into that category, especially in the last quarter, on Saturday.

You probably have more to complain about with Liam Williams’ try but with two (or was it three) on-field officials and the TMO reviewing the score thoroughly there’s no reason to complain. After all it’s a tenet of rugby sportsmanship to accept the ref’s decision with good grace even though the players might be seething underneath.

It would be better if England stopped complaining about the ref and started worrying about leadership on and off the field and how they address their discipline issues.

Good luck against France - you could do us a GS favour.

This 100%. Although I'm not sure about the last line. Whilst if England beat France we could get the championship a bit easier, I'm thinking about how much more of a flat spin the English media will get into if they lose to France and Ireland.

I was trying to exercise my good sportsmanship in best rugby fashion at a time of great sorrow for England supporters!

I'm thinking about all those articles about how it was going to be between England and France, and since England were at home to France it was thus England's year again. I love watching the English media tear themselves apart when these things happen.

The reality is that the teams are still pretty close to each other, the same as they were last year to a large extent, but the media make it so all or nothing that its good to remind them that there are no certainties in sport.

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: This 100%. Although I'm not sure about the last line. Whilst if England beat France we could get the championship a bit easier, I'm thinking about how much more of a flat spin the English media will get into if they lose to France and Ireland.

I was trying to exercise my good sportsmanship in best rugby fashion at a time of great sorrow for England supporters!

I'm thinking about all those articles about how it was going to be between England and France, and since England were at home to France it was thus England's year again. I love watching the English media tear themselves apart when these things happen.

The reality is that the teams are still pretty close to each other, the same as they were last year to a large extent, but the media make it so all or nothing that its good to remind them that there are no certainties in sport.

Yes. And it’s all turned round so quickly in the past three weeks.

I saw all those forecasts - would France, Ireland, or even Scotland be runners-up to England - and had a quiet chuckle to myself because I had a feeling things were improving for Wales. Rather dismissively, we were put in the bottom two or three and that’s where the bookies had us. There might have been a bit sniggering going on by our rivals that we could end up in sixth place.

It felt to me that 2019 would be our model (game order reversed) and that seems to be working out to be the case.

Gatland said then before the first France game that if we win we would go on and win the championship.

Credit to Pivac, the Count, Melon, Humphry and the ginger monster they’ve really turned things round. Also the conditioning team seem to have the squad to very high levels of fitness - and after three very hard games we were still going strong at the end against England while they buckled badly in the last quarter.

I felt so confident about what was to come that I was one of very few on this board to forecast a win against Ireland, then Scotland and even against England when everyone was saying we faced an England backlash and our first defeat.

Onwards and upwards!

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote: I was trying to exercise my good sportsmanship in best rugby fashion at a time of great sorrow for England supporters!

I'm thinking about all those articles about how it was going to be between England and France, and since England were at home to France it was thus England's year again. I love watching the English media tear themselves apart when these things happen.

The reality is that the teams are still pretty close to each other, the same as they were last year to a large extent, but the media make it so all or nothing that its good to remind them that there are no certainties in sport.

Yes. And it’s all turned round so quickly in the past three weeks.

I saw all those forecasts - would France, Ireland, or even Scotland be runners-up to England - and had a quiet chuckle to myself because I had a feeling things were improving for Wales. Rather dismissively, we were put in the bottom two or three and that’s where the bookies had us. There might have been a bit sniggering going on by our rivals that we could end up in sixth place.

It felt to me that 2019 would be our model (game order reversed) and that seems to be working out to be the case.

Gatland said then before the first France game that if we win we would go on and win the championship.

Credit to Pivac, the Count, Melon, Humphry and the ginger monster they’ve really turned things round. Also the conditioning team seem to have the squad to very high levels of fitness - and after three very hard games we were still going strong at the end against England while they buckled badly in the last quarter.

I felt so confident about what was to come that I was one of very few on this board to forecast a win against Ireland, then Scotland and even against England when everyone was saying we faced an England backlash and our first defeat.

Onwards and upwards!

Yeah, that's why it has to be the "luckiest triple crown ever", otherwise ... well, it just does not compute.

England v France is going to be a real head vs heart one for me: better for Wales's championship if France lose. But much less fun.

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote: I was trying to exercise my good sportsmanship in best rugby fashion at a time of great sorrow for England supporters!

I'm thinking about all those articles about how it was going to be between England and France, and since England were at home to France it was thus England's year again. I love watching the English media tear themselves apart when these things happen.

The reality is that the teams are still pretty close to each other, the same as they were last year to a large extent, but the media make it so all or nothing that its good to remind them that there are no certainties in sport.

Yes. And it’s all turned round so quickly in the past three weeks.

I saw all those forecasts - would France, Ireland, or even Scotland be runners-up to England - and had a quiet chuckle to myself because I had a feeling things were improving for Wales. Rather dismissively, we were put in the bottom two or three and that’s where the bookies had us. There might have been a bit sniggering going on by our rivals that we could end up in sixth place.

It felt to me that 2019 would be our model (game order reversed) and that seems to be working out to be the case.

Gatland said then before the first France game that if we win we would go on and win the championship.

Credit to Pivac, the Count, Melon, Humphry and the ginger monster they’ve really turned things round. Also the conditioning team seem to have the squad to very high levels of fitness - and after three very hard games we were still going strong at the end against England while they buckled badly in the last quarter.

I felt so confident about what was to come that I was one of very few on this board to forecast a win against Ireland, then Scotland and even against England when everyone was saying we faced an England backlash and our first defeat.

Onwards and upwards!

Same as under Gatland, Paul Stridgeon, he's excellent, you'll recognise his face from past Lions tours.

It’s only a few weeks ago that Jamie George gave an interview stating that England were looking to ‘take teams apart’ in this year’s tournament. I still think England are a really good side, albeit one that has temporarily lost direction, but it’s nice to see him made to look a bit silly after that comment.

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote: I was trying to exercise my good sportsmanship in best rugby fashion at a time of great sorrow for England supporters!

I'm thinking about all those articles about how it was going to be between England and France, and since England were at home to France it was thus England's year again. I love watching the English media tear themselves apart when these things happen.

The reality is that the teams are still pretty close to each other, the same as they were last year to a large extent, but the media make it so all or nothing that its good to remind them that there are no certainties in sport.

Yes. And it’s all turned round so quickly in the past three weeks.

I saw all those forecasts - would France, Ireland, or even Scotland be runners-up to England - and had a quiet chuckle to myself because I had a feeling things were improving for Wales. Rather dismissively, we were put in the bottom two or three and that’s where the bookies had us. There might have been a bit sniggering going on by our rivals that we could end up in sixth place.

It felt to me that 2019 would be our model (game order reversed) and that seems to be working out to be the case.

Gatland said then before the first France game that if we win we would go on and win the championship.

Credit to Pivac, the Count, Melon, Humphry and the ginger monster they’ve really turned things round. Also the conditioning team seem to have the squad to very high levels of fitness - and after three very hard games we were still going strong at the end against England while they buckled badly in the last quarter.

I felt so confident about what was to come that I was one of very few on this board to forecast a win against Ireland, then Scotland and even against England when everyone was saying we faced an England backlash and our first defeat.

Onwards and upwards!

We are definitely finishing the stronger in the last quarter of the game, partly due to bench impact and partly due to conditioning.

Wallpaperman wrote:It’s only a few weeks ago that Jamie George gave an interview stating that England were looking to ‘take teams apart’ in this year’s tournament. I still think England are a really good side, albeit one that has temporarily lost direction, but it’s nice to see him made to look a bit silly after that comment.

I would say that England is a physically powerful side that is hard to beat. I don't think they are a really good side since they are chronically short of attacking ideas in midfield. I would put this down mainly to Farrell, who is a combative but quite dull 12, who is a tad lacking in pace, kicks too much, can't make a break or release the England top class finishers out wide.

Spiffy wrote:

Wallpaperman wrote:It’s only a few weeks ago that Jamie George gave an interview stating that England were looking to ‘take teams apart’ in this year’s tournament. I still think England are a really good side, albeit one that has temporarily lost direction, but it’s nice to see him made to look a bit silly after that comment.

I would say that England is a physically powerful side that is hard to beat. I don't think they are a really good side since they are chronically short of attacking ideas in midfield. I would put this down mainly to Farrell, who is a combative but quite dull 12, who is a tad lacking in pace, kicks too much, can't make a break or release the England top class finishers out wide.

England are good at what they do, but then that doesn't work (i.e. the opposition match them for physicality), they look out of ideas. They tried to do a bit more on Saturday, but aside from good Welsh defence, the basics let them down a lot so they are obviously having a few issues with skills and with everyone understanding the game plan.

Sandydragon wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Wallpaperman wrote:It’s only a few weeks ago that Jamie George gave an interview stating that England were looking to ‘take teams apart’ in this year’s tournament. I still think England are a really good side, albeit one that has temporarily lost direction, but it’s nice to see him made to look a bit silly after that comment.

I would say that England is a physically powerful side that is hard to beat. I don't think they are a really good side since they are chronically short of attacking ideas in midfield. I would put this down mainly to Farrell, who is a combative but quite dull 12, who is a tad lacking in pace, kicks too much, can't make a break or release the England top class finishers out wide.

England are good at what they do, but then that doesn't work (i.e. the opposition match them for physicality), they look out of ideas. They tried to do a bit more on Saturday, but aside from good Welsh defence, the basics let them down a lot so they are obviously having a few issues with skills and with everyone understanding the game plan.

You have to say that Wales attack and defence in the first ten minutes put England under severe pressure causing them into making silly mistakes and their indiscipline saw them giving away a raft of penalties. It took a lot of momentum out of England.

I think that Welsh pressure paid off in the last quarter and England buckled and couldn’t live with us.

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Spiffy wrote:I would say that England is a physically powerful side that is hard to beat. I don't think they are a really good side since they are chronically short of attacking ideas in midfield. I would put this down mainly to Farrell, who is a combative but quite dull 12, who is a tad lacking in pace, kicks too much, can't make a break or release the England top class finishers out wide.

England are good at what they do, but then that doesn't work (i.e. the opposition match them for physicality), they look out of ideas. They tried to do a bit more on Saturday, but aside from good Welsh defence, the basics let them down a lot so they are obviously having a few issues with skills and with everyone understanding the game plan.

You have to say that Wales attack and defence in the first ten minutes put England under severe pressure causing them into making silly mistakes and their indiscipline saw them giving away a raft of penalties. It took a lot of momentum out of England.

I think that Welsh pressure paid off in the last quarter and England buckled and couldn’t live with us.

People are knocking the Welsh game at the moment, but the last 20 minutes was a good as most sides would achieve against a top level opponent. We made the English side give up cheap penalties, took our opportunities then worked a perfectly good try. If it wasn't Barbarians style stuff well no one does that in a close game against top tier opponents, but the reality is we utterly dominated that last quarter, plus we had lots of good taxes in the firs t30 minutes as well where we put England under pressure and they coughed up penalties.

In some respects its a shame our first 2 tries were so controversial because if we had take 2 penalties instead and won by 8 points in the end, the ENlish would have been forced to accept they were outplayed over 80 minutes.

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: England are good at what they do, but then that doesn't work (i.e. the opposition match them for physicality), they look out of ideas. They tried to do a bit more on Saturday, but aside from good Welsh defence, the basics let them down a lot so they are obviously having a few issues with skills and with everyone understanding the game plan.

You have to say that Wales attack and defence in the first ten minutes put England under severe pressure causing them into making silly mistakes and their indiscipline saw them giving away a raft of penalties. It took a lot of momentum out of England.

I think that Welsh pressure paid off in the last quarter and England buckled and couldn’t live with us.

People are knocking the Welsh game at the moment, but the last 20 minutes was a good as most sides would achieve against a top level opponent. We made the English side give up cheap penalties, took our opportunities then worked a perfectly good try. If it wasn't Barbarians style stuff well no one does that in a close game against top tier opponents, but the reality is we utterly dominated that last quarter, plus we had lots of good taxes in the firs t30 minutes as well where we put England under pressure and they coughed up penalties.

In some respects its a shame our first 2 tries were so controversial because if we had take 2 penalties instead and won by 8 points in the end, the ENlish would have been forced to accept they were outplayed over 80 minutes.

Good point. No worries though, if the English have an excuse for their failings and so delay making the necessary improvements and personnel changes.

And the English press (supposedly the UK press) always find some reason to make out a Welsh Triple Crown, Championship, Grand Slam etc is devalued. Something has to be wrong if the best team doesn't win.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote: You have to say that Wales attack and defence in the first ten minutes put England under severe pressure causing them into making silly mistakes and their indiscipline saw them giving away a raft of penalties. It took a lot of momentum out of England.

I think that Welsh pressure paid off in the last quarter and England buckled and couldn’t live with us.

People are knocking the Welsh game at the moment, but the last 20 minutes was a good as most sides would achieve against a top level opponent. We made the English side give up cheap penalties, took our opportunities then worked a perfectly good try. If it wasn't Barbarians style stuff well no one does that in a close game against top tier opponents, but the reality is we utterly dominated that last quarter, plus we had lots of good taxes in the firs t30 minutes as well where we put England under pressure and they coughed up penalties.

In some respects its a shame our first 2 tries were so controversial because if we had take 2 penalties instead and won by 8 points in the end, the ENlish would have been forced to accept they were outplayed over 80 minutes.

Good point. No worries though, if the English have an excuse for their failings and so delay making the necessary improvements and personnel changes.

And the English press (supposedly the UK press) always find some reason to make out a Welsh Triple Crown, Championship, Grand Slam etc is devalued. Something has to be wrong if the best team doesn't win.

Agreed. We should write for the Fail, they’ve just put
An article online about this.

It seems pundits are waking up to the fact that Wales are performing far better than people imagined even earlier this week.

First Jim Hamilton and Lawrence Dallaglio have fundamentally changed their opinion of AWJ and now foresee him as a leader for the Lions after both had written him off last year.

Will Greenwood has five Welsh players in his team of the third round and eulogises about Liam Williams.

Perhaps when the Championship is over people will recognise that this is a great Wales team in the making and having come through a very difficult year in 2020 are becoming a force once again.

I've seen better replays of Watson's try now, and the pass to him is clearly and obviously forward.

Once again (as with 90% of tries scored anywhere now) England had penalty advantage. Let's be generous and assume Faz would have kicked it. So the revised scoreline is now 32-20

Sourdust wrote:I've seen better replays of Watson's try now, and the pass to him is clearly and obviously forward.

Once again (as with 90% of tries scored anywhere now) England had penalty advantage. Let's be generous and assume Faz would have kicked it. So the revised scoreline is now 32-20

That's a stat challenge for Lizard

Sourdust wrote:I've seen better replays of Watson's try now, and the pass to him is clearly and obviously forward.

Once again (as with 90% of tries scored anywhere now) England had penalty advantage. Let's be generous and assume Faz would have kicked it. So the revised scoreline is now 32-20

Got a decent link? The ones I’ve found aren’t conclusive.

Sandydragon wrote:

Sourdust wrote:I've seen better replays of Watson's try now, and the pass to him is clearly and obviously forward.

Once again (as with 90% of tries scored anywhere now) England had penalty advantage. Let's be generous and assume Faz would have kicked it. So the revised scoreline is now 32-20

Got a decent link? The ones I’ve found aren’t conclusive.

I saw it from the overhead camera when I watched the match again. It looked forward from overhead.