England vs SA

[jngf]

Result disappointing - on plus side Underhill was world class - only Jack Willis comes close as 7 imo from our recent test opensides ( though I would be willing to see Will Evans given a go in 6 Nations at some stage).

[Stom]

I’m afraid that my opinion is going to simply be that any personnel changes are rearranging the deck chairs. This is a coaching and leadership problem and we need to spend surgery fortune dumping this lot asap.

[TheDasher]

Lawes being put on the boil here. Feel bad for him

He is talking shite

[Oakboy]

Sleightholme is a huge step down from IFW.

of all the things to have a go at.....he was actually tip top 1st 15 mins.

Shame sbout the other 65, you mean?

[TheDasher]

Lawes being put on the boil here. Feel bad for him

He is talking shite... Ugo spot on. Just not good enough.

[jngf]

Slade is just utterly dreadful. In charge of the defence and second in command in the attack.

Same problem we had under Jones. The “leaders” are actually not good enough as players let alone leaders.

Slade has been a wasted pick for so long. Offers nothing at this level. Good prem player.

I have to agree Slade is just not an exciting pick and has neither the pace nor power to be anything more than an average test centre

[Mellsblue]

That is officially a terrible performance by my metric, ie Itoje gets repeatedly pinged for trying too hard to influence the game.

[Oakboy]

That is officially a terrible performance by my metric, ie Itoje gets repeatedly pinged for trying too hard to influence the game.

SA were way below par. So, how good were we two scores off them?

[Epaminondas Pules]

According to Jamie George were a “very clever rugby team”

[Stom]

I just can't see how we can improve from here without the players being given belief. Because they obviously are utterly bereft of ideas and when that happens, the buck is 100% on the coaching.

[Which Tyler]

According to Jamie George were a “very clever rugby team”

Ahh, the old " tell, don't show" method...

[jngf]

England also need a serious rethink about how best to use Earl- his explosiveness in broken play is great but we needed a hard carrying 8 today who makes holes in the defensive line and that’s simply not Earl’s forte. I would genuinely like to see Earl tried at 12 at this level - after all it’s not like we’re exactly spoilt for choice is it?

[Oakboy]

I just can't see how we can improve from here without the players being given belief. Because they obviously are utterly bereft of ideas and when that happens, the buck is 100% on the coaching.

Yes. Sad but true.

[Danno]

According to Jamie George were a “very clever rugby team”

SA were shit and we still didn't look like beating them

[Mellsblue]

According to Jamie George were a “very clever rugby team”

Gives some hope we’ll at least win the quiz at the after match dinner.

[Danno]

Lawes being put on the boil here. Feel bad for him

He is talking shite

He really didn't have a choice. The massive pause before every answer spoke volumes, he's not gonna throw his former teammates under the bus. Horrible position to be in

[Mellsblue]

As always, you watch the Ire/Fra vs NZ/SA match later in the day and you realise how far away we are.

[Mellsblue]

Ditto Kayser in comparison to Healey.

[FKAS]

As always, you watch the Ire/Fra vs NZ/SA match later in the day and you realise how far away we are.

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

[Mellsblue]

As always, you watch the Ire/Fra vs NZ/SA match later in the day and you realise how far away we are.

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

If you think our games are of the same quality of Fra vs NZ then I’ll have whatever you’re drinking. I’d agree we’d never give up the try to Roigard but only because we never offload…
All fantastic excuses for losing again whilst easily losing shape in both attack and defence. We’ve got a fatal combo of players who aren’t good enough and coaches who aren’t good enough.
Kudos for working Steward into your argument despite his numerous mistakes and his direct running threat aiding Smith by receiving no passes from him that I can remember.

[Mikey Brown]

As always, you watch the Ire/Fra vs NZ/SA match later in the day and you realise how far away we are.

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

Seems like a good summary. As a huge fan of his it’s killing me watching Dombrandt for England.

It’s disappointing to not have been closing out these games, but I think it’s quite reasonable that we aren’t as good as NZ, France, SA and probably Ireland most days.

[Banquo]

Result disappointing - on plus side Underhill was world class - only Jack Willis comes close as 7 imo from our recent test opensides ( though I would be willing to see Will Evans given a go in 6 Nations at some stage).

what other top sides would pick Underhill to start do you think? He did well t be fair

[Banquo]

Sleightholme is a huge step down from IFW.

of all the things to have a go at.....he was actually tip top 1st 15 mins.

Shame sbout the other 65, you mean?

shame he didnt get a pass in that time iirc

[Cameo]

As always, you watch the Ire/Fra vs NZ/SA match later in the day and you realise how far away we are.

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

I'm not going to try and gee up all you England fans again. My view is that you are still a dangerous side and will come good but I can see it is depressing right now.

However, I think you are on to something re errors. The difference in the very top teams at the moment isn't that they don't make errors, they do. The one you point to was just one of many and SA did plenty of stupid things today. The difference is the top teams somehow manage to hang in there and do enough. Yeah, there are tactical differences, but it doesn't feel like any team is unbeatable at the moment. It makes it hard to analyse though. In any defeat, you can point to stupid mistakes and say 'that's the reason', but you can often do the same for the other team.

I dunno what I'm trying to say really other than there is a lot of (fun) randomness in games at the moment, maybe it's that player quality and, especially, the quality on the bench that is shing through. That seems England's biggest issue to me.

Also, Smith is great to watch.

[FKAS]

As always, you watch the Ire/Fra vs NZ/SA match later in the day and you realise how far away we are.

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

If you think our games are of the same quality of Fra vs NZ then I’ll have whatever you’re drinking. I’d agree we’d never give up the try to Roigard but only because we never offload…
All fantastic excuses for losing again whilst easily losing shape in both attack and defence. We’ve got a fatal combo of players who aren’t good enough and coaches who aren’t good enough.
Kudos for working Steward into your argument despite his numerous mistakes and his direct running threat aiding Smith by receiving no passes from him that I can remember.

You don't always have to get the ball to be an effective direct running threat. He also did what Furbank failed miserably to do since the law variations and carry the ball back effectively and consistently to provide a platform to work from.

I'm not sure where this arrogance comes from that we have this god given right to be better than the best team in the world. Double world cup winning side with enviable depth (particularly in the tight five). Apparently should make no errors ever and never miss a tackle. Not like Kolbe has ever made defenders look silly before. Bizarre insistence on self flagellation, as Puja likes to say "other teams are allowed to be good". At the start of the Autumn the general consensus was 2 wins was the base aim, 3 wins would be great and no one suggested 4 wins because no one gave us a hope Vs South Africa. Yet we have them a good game, fixed a number of the issues from previous games and really should have been in a position to steal it at the death.