RugbyRebels

Big D wrote:I see we are playing Argentina on a 3 match summer tour and once in the AIs. Should get to know them well!

Where did you see that?

General Zod wrote:

Big D wrote:I see we are playing Argentina on a 3 match summer tour and once in the AIs. Should get to know them well!

Where did you see that?

Twitter.

Cameo wrote:Seems we are actually all roughly on the same page for once. We are not terrible, but there are some things we need to improve including the centres.

I am not clever enough to do a poll, but what do people think the solution is:

1. 12 Johnson 13 Harris - but with more time together and therefore cohesion

2. 12 Johnson 13 Jones - assuming Jones gets some gametime

3. 12 Redpath 13 Harris - assuming Redpath is back in January as Townsend suggested

4. 12 Redpath 13 Jones

5. 12 Redpath 13 Johnson

6. One of the above 12s plus Steyn at 13 - good defender but a bit more about him in attack.

7. A combo with either Hutchison, Laing or Bennet in there.

8. Something left field like Russell at 12.

I can only see a couple of those being realistic options, frankly.

Redpath back would be fantastic but I'm not putting any immediate expectation on that given how terrible his injury was, and he's hardly got a body of work and experience to fall back on. Supremely talented and could potentially offer all the good bits of Matt Scott and Peter Horne in one package, but it's early days and who knows what that injury has done to his acceleration or his confidence.

More time with the new attack coach and better cohesion between Johnson and Harris would no doubt help, but it's hard to see how we are actually trying to use Harris in attack. He inevitably ends up being the big, clumsy link-man on the end of awful, looping wide passes, with none of the inside defenders committed. It's infuriating to watch.

Johnson has done so much good and makes so few errors that it feels harsh for him to be the one to make way in favour of Harris, but it's hard to see this combo really challenging top defences without a serious rethink in how we attack. Taylor and McDowall as hard-running 12 options seem to have fallen off the radar completely which is a shame. Hutchinson's form evaporated after the RWC and his move to 12 seems to have stifled his game. Russell at 12 I'm just not really seeing, and if we're only trying it for 5 minutes at a time I'm not sure how we'll ever learn one way or the other.

Jones just can't get things clicking at Quins for a number of reasons, but I still think the 12. Jones 13. Harris option could be worth another look. He just has a tackle-breaking ability that nobody else comes close to and we desperately need somebody who can attack the inside channels and give Russell a bit more room to work with. Effective forward runners off 10 just don't seem to exist - yet another area we make everything painfully telegraphed for the opposition - and Harris never seems to be used in the out-to-in crash role to any great effect.

I really thought with Jones adding the fullback string to his bow he'd be demanding the 23 shirt, but he must be really awful in training or something because there's no way he should be behind Kinghorn. Steyn similarly I think offers a huge amount more and can play a couple of positions. Not sure he's played fullback but I don't really trust Kinghorn at 15 anyway. All his best rugby for Scotland has been on the wing.

Overall it feels like another campaign has slipped by where there are dozen or so players who've randomly dropped in and out of the 23 without us ever really learning much about them. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation now in the centres where we can't get anything fluid working with Harris there, but can't exactly abandon our superstar defender either when the midfield defence is one area that's actually clicking. I really hope Zondagh has some tricks up his sleeve.

A bit mental. No idea who else we get in the autumn. A crack at the AB is long overdue

Mikey Brown wrote:

Cameo wrote:Seems we are actually all roughly on the same page for once. We are not terrible, but there are some things we need to improve including the centres.

I am not clever enough to do a poll, but what do people think the solution is:

1. 12 Johnson 13 Harris - but with more time together and therefore cohesion

2. 12 Johnson 13 Jones - assuming Jones gets some gametime

3. 12 Redpath 13 Harris - assuming Redpath is back in January as Townsend suggested

4. 12 Redpath 13 Jones

5. 12 Redpath 13 Johnson

6. One of the above 12s plus Steyn at 13 - good defender but a bit more about him in attack.

7. A combo with either Hutchison, Laing or Bennet in there.

8. Something left field like Russell at 12.

I can only see a couple of those being realistic options, frankly.

Redpath back would be fantastic but I'm not putting any immediate expectation on that given how terrible his injury was, and he's hardly got a body of work and experience to fall back on. Supremely talented and could potentially offer all the good bits of Matt Scott and Peter Horne in one package, but it's early days and who knows what that injury has done to his acceleration or his confidence.

More time with the new attack coach and better cohesion between Johnson and Harris would no doubt help, but it's hard to see how we are actually trying to use Harris in attack. He inevitably ends up being the big, clumsy link-man on the end of awful, looping wide passes, with none of the inside defenders committed. It's infuriating to watch.

Johnson has done so much good and makes so few errors that it feels harsh for him to be the one to make way in favour of Harris, but it's hard to see this combo really challenging top defences without a serious rethink in how we attack. Taylor and McDowall as hard-running 12 options seem to have fallen off the radar completely which is a shame. Hutchinson's form evaporated after the RWC and his move to 12 seems to have stifled his game. Russell at 12 I'm just not really seeing, and if we're only trying it for 5 minutes at a time I'm not sure how we'll ever learn one way or the other.

Jones just can't get things clicking at Quins for a number of reasons, but I still think the 12. Jones 13. Harris option could be worth another look. He just has a tackle-breaking ability that nobody else comes close to and we desperately need somebody who can attack the inside channels and give Russell a bit more room to work with. Effective forward runners off 10 just don't seem to exist - yet another area we make everything painfully telegraphed for the opposition - and Harris never seems to be used in the out-to-in crash role to any great effect.

I really thought with Jones adding the fullback string to his bow he'd be demanding the 23 shirt, but he must be really awful in training or something because there's no way he should be behind Kinghorn. Steyn similarly I think offers a huge amount more and can play a couple of positions. Not sure he's played fullback but I don't really trust Kinghorn at 15 anyway. All his best rugby for Scotland has been on the wing.

Overall it feels like another campaign has slipped by where there are dozen or so players who've randomly dropped in and out of the 23 without us ever really learning much about them. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation now in the centres where we can't get anything fluid working with Harris there, but can't exactly abandon our superstar defender either when the midfield defence is one area that's actually clicking. I really hope Zondagh has some tricks up his sleeve.

I'm still holding out hope that McDowall comes good. He looked to have all of the tools but it's just never really happened for him yet. Him and a fully fit Redpath competing at 12 would be great.

I've also high hopes for Currie at Edinburgh. In 12 months time I think he'll be pushing Harris hard for the 13 jersey.

I love watching Hutchinson attack but agree that he's much better at 13 in more space and it would be the polar opposite to Harris so it's not going to happen. I like the idea of him as a game breaking bench option though.

Yeah haven't seen much of Currie but I like the look of him. Not sure if it's just seeing a blonde guy in the Edinburgh 13 shirt but reminds me of Cairns a bit? Ball in 2 hands, balanced looking runner but doesn't look shy in contact.

I have not seen much of Currie at all, and the little I've seen I've forgotten. That doesn't mean I'm writing him off but we do need to see if he can cement a squad place at Edinburgh before we can even imagine he might be good enough for Scotland -it won't be this season for the latter, so he has one season really to be in RWC 2023 consideration.
He'll need to be really good - Hoggy/Russell good to be sure of that.

The other thing I can't remember is whether he plays 12 or13. Some can do both to the highest level but that is rare.

For example, Jones at 12 does not work. It really doesn't. Hutchison has/is playing both, but largely anonymously at 12 as playmaker outside a non playmaker at 10. He had one season at 13 where he looked the bees knees in attack, but like Jones defence at 13 NQGE
I like Johnson, he has a bit of a rep for being a bit slow for a centre. I don't think he is particularly slow but I'm not sure he has the acceleration/gas to play 13. And he has rarely if ever played there AFAIK.
Redpath might have enough to play both - but his top pace might have been just about good enough for 13 before his injury, now we won't know for a bit

Yes you seem pretty sure Jones absolutely can’t play 12 but I don’t know why. He’s not played there too consistently for a few seasons, until this one, but that’s largely where he broke through before getting Scotland caps. Is it something specific with positioning you’ve seen when he plays at 12?

I’m mainly suggesting he gets the 23 shirt and coming on at 12 inside Harris is still an option if we need both on the pitch.

I like SJ at 12, but with Harris at 13 it is, as noted above, a little bit rubbish in attack. But, as also said, it seems weird to have a well functioning midfield defence and start mucking around with that.

With His Lordship at 10 though, I don't know that going looking for attacking centres is anything other than a waste of time. We need guys who are going to clean up HL's messes, which SJ and Harris do, not guys who can exploit the one chance he creates that apparently sweeps all the mess under the carpet.

Just had a brilliant idea. Duhan at 12! Can't believe we haven't discussed this before.

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Any chance of Mark Bennett ever coming back?

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septic 9 wrote:I have not seen much of Currie at all, and the little I've seen I've forgotten. That doesn't mean I'm writing him off but we do need to see if he can cement a squad place at Edinburgh before we can even imagine he might be good enough for Scotland -it won't be this season for the latter, so he has one season really to be in RWC 2023 consideration.
He'll need to be really good - Hoggy/Russell good to be sure of that.

The other thing I can't remember is whether he plays 12 or13. Some can do both to the highest level but that is rare.

For example, Jones at 12 does not work. It really doesn't. Hutchison has/is playing both, but largely anonymously at 12 as playmaker outside a non playmaker at 10. He had one season at 13 where he looked the bees knees in attack, but like Jones defence at 13 NQGE
I like Johnson, he has a bit of a rep for being a bit slow for a centre. I don't think he is particularly slow but I'm not sure he has the acceleration/gas to play 13. And he has rarely if ever played there AFAIK.
Redpath might have enough to play both - but his top pace might have been just about good enough for 13 before his injury, now we won't know for a bit

Currie needs a lot of rugby, he was playing S6 i the summer and is just out the U20s with little rugby. Would need a meteoric rise for him to get past Bennett especially as Immelman can play there too now Bofelli will be in the Edinburgh back 3.

I agree Jones isn't a 12, it doesn't suit his skill set which is about pace and getting into space. His range of passing isn't brilliant either.

SJ isn't slow, I just think he has lost a yard since over the last 3 or 4 years and is no longer "fast", there is definitely a lack of dynamism in the midfield and I am not quite sure the best way to resolve it without compromising the defence. There is a lot of hope on Redpath's shoulders.

I wouldn't be against Hastings and Finn at 10 and 12 in some games. Finn's defence is pretty solid and whilst not the fastest he has good hands and would be a second/third kicking option in open play.

Mikey Brown wrote:Yes you seem pretty sure Jones absolutely can’t play 12 but I don’t know why. He’s not played there too consistently for a few seasons, until this one, but that’s largely where he broke through before getting Scotland caps. Is it something specific with positioning you’ve seen when he plays at 12?

I’m mainly suggesting he gets the 23 shirt and coming on at 12 inside Harris is still an option if we need both on the pitch.

as ever opinions is opinions, I've watched Jones at 12 for Glasgow and for Scotland, and it doesn't work. If he could nail a regular start there for Quins and prove me and Toonie wrong fair enough. realistically he has no chance barring serious long term injuries of displacing either the 12 or 13 at quins this season. He went tp quins as he was out of a job bar a pro d2 job. he needs a more realistic gig somewhere else or he is out of the frame. Thank you Mr Rennie

septic 9 wrote: Thank you Mr Rennie

!!

I know there will 1,000 holes shot in this but I'd love to see how Darcy Graham could perform at 12. He reminds me of a running back in American Football the way he identifies gaps in congested spaces and manages to create go forward ball. No idea really what his distribution or kicking is like and I'm not 100% serious that we should go down this route but I'm just intrigued as to how he would go

stevedog1980 wrote:I know there will 1,000 holes shot in this but I'd love to see how Darcy Graham could perform at 12. He reminds me of a running back in American Football the way he identifies gaps in congested spaces and manages to create go forward ball. No idea really what his distribution or kicking is like and I'm not 100% serious that we should go down this route but I'm just intrigued as to how he would go

A speed bump for most international number 8s

I know, it's not a serious choice but I would love to see how much go forward we'd suddenly have outside of Russell. I'd only like to see it because of his ability to make metres in traffic, I know he's not a 12 in reality

whatisthejava wrote:

stevedog1980 wrote:I know there will 1,000 holes shot in this but I'd love to see how Darcy Graham could perform at 12. He reminds me of a running back in American Football the way he identifies gaps in congested spaces and manages to create go forward ball. No idea really what his distribution or kicking is like and I'm not 100% serious that we should go down this route but I'm just intrigued as to how he would go

A speed bump for most international number 8s

Speed bump for many international wingers.