RugbyRebels

TheDasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:33 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:29 am BTW, Ford ran the backs really well I thought- he created our first try after Furbank launched the counter.

He did but I think the Smiths would too.

Not since Morrissey left.

They are all different styles, so horses for courses.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:32 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:27 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am

I'm right with you on Steward, he looked like prime Steward vs Wales and would've been a handful yesterday. Over Daly 100%.

Daly gives you more options and actually looked handy at centre. Freeman covering wing and 13 does give you some flex I guess.

He did look quite handy at centre but I'm not he would be if we're under the pump, we were playing fast and wide and it suited him. Agree re Freeman giving you options. Interested to see Freeman at 13 but loathed to change too much too.

Daly gives you a lot more cover than Steward from the bench- I would only use Steward as a starter, and not right now as Furbank is a big part of the attack zip, tho he needs to cut out the brain farts. Fast and wide imo is our best way to get competitive with our current 'best' players.

I think Slade has to be vulnerable, although better yesterday (and even then, he made a bad read for the first Ireland try)

It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:27 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:28 am

I'd probably keep the starting side the same but bring Steward onto the bench for Daly. Well without all the kicking analysis that Stunning Breakout has available. France do like to kick to compete but their back three aren't particularly outstanding under the high ball so they are as likely to kick long.

I'm right with you on Steward, he looked like prime Steward vs Wales and would've been a handful yesterday. Over Daly 100%.

Daly gives you more options and actually looked handy at centre. Freeman covering wing and 13 does give you some flex I guess.

Daly also gives you the option to kick the ball to the right of the upright. Obviously something they have been working on

Well played England, good to have the championship alive heading into the last round

Did ye see the genge incident? Looks reckless fair play to furlong for bouncing up - maybe minimal head contact?

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:51 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:27 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am

I'm right with you on Steward, he looked like prime Steward vs Wales and would've been a handful yesterday. Over Daly 100%.

Daly gives you more options and actually looked handy at centre. Freeman covering wing and 13 does give you some flex I guess.

Daly also gives you the option to kick the ball to the right of the upright. Obviously something they have been working on

good player is our Eliot.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:43 am It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

yup, though Furbank has been an excellent prem player for a while, and Aki had quite an impact.

Our metres run v Ireland's is quite a stat- and how we used our possession impressive. 50% less kicking cough

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:29 am BTW, Ford ran the backs really well I thought- he created our first try after Furbank launched the counter.

True. The knives are out for Ford but his game with ball in hand was good.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:43 am It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

Worried that they'd have to run at the England defence after he'd turned the ball back over to them.

Hats off to Steely Balls, he backed his tactics and players, ignored a lot of what the former pros in the media were demanding. Delivered in style.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:08 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:29 am BTW, Ford ran the backs really well I thought- he created our first try after Furbank launched the counter.

True. The knives are out for Ford but his game with ball in hand was good.

I do feel that Ford is getting unfair flack because he's one of the old guard, bar his two drop goal attempts in play he was good. He and Mitchell were composed and bossed the game. Kicking off the tee was pretty woeful and unFord like. Be interesting to see what Borthwick does but I wouldn't be surprised if he kept it as is.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:43 am It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

Worried that they'd have to run at the England defence after he'd turned the ball back over to them.

Hats off to Steely Balls, he backed his tactics and players, ignored a lot of what the former pros in the media were demanding. Delivered in style.

What pissed me off about Furbank was after he got turned over the first time he then went and repeated it. That said his presence does give our attack a lot more threat- which is something we have all been wanting

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:13 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:08 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:29 am BTW, Ford ran the backs really well I thought- he created our first try after Furbank launched the counter.

True. The knives are out for Ford but his game with ball in hand was good.

I do feel that Ford is getting unfair flack because he's one of the old guard, bar his two drop goal attempts in play he was good. He and Mitchell were composed and bossed the game. Kicking off the tee was pretty woeful and unFord like. Be interesting to see what Borthwick does but I wouldn't be surprised if he kept it as is.

Old guard or not his attacking threat is restricted to his passing ability ( which has never been doubted). Outside of that, meh

In case you missed it.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:43 am It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

Mostly fair.
On giving SB some credit, I've been talked around to writing off his first year as emergency, rather than showing him to be too out of his depth; and I have seen improvements match on match this 6N - especially from Wales to Scotland, and now from Scotland to Ireland - the minute by minute has helped on this, but I felt the 2 2-week gaps really showed it in real-time.

Your other aspects weren't anything I personally had a problem with - I'd have selected CCS > Chessum at BSF, but the important thing was having Martin at lock; I'd have had Steward ahead of Furbank throughout (GF on the bench) but I had no problems with either of those. Lawrence and Slade were my picks for the centre berths throughout (even though neither are free of criticism).

I'd add George Ford, and those calling for his retirement/dropping also needing to give credit. I'd have started FSmith over him whilst Finn was fit, but GF's been essential in orchestrating the attack and manipulating the opposition (and, you know, actually having an attack at all). I can't see him not having been central to what appears to be the deliberate use of the drop goal. Bad kicking at the sticks yesterday, but excellent ball in hand, and pretty good kicking territorially.

Where I don't agree, is that yesterday, England reached the sum of its parts. We've made a good step, but there were still plenty of errors to be ironed out. I think that 15 are capable of more, and we still need some changes to the 23.

Yesterday did nothing to bring me onside with Daly and Care (or Dombrandt, but that's a neutral, not an anti-). Trouble is, there's not really an alternative to Care, especially given how badly Spencer fluffed his lines last week (and IMO JvP and Quirke are still unrealised potential). Daly's just too error strewn - he does some good things, and some terrible. We also need to find some 3rd choice props from somewhere, and get a dozen caps into them so that they're not shell shocked when we finally move on from Marler and Cole.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:19 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:13 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:08 am

True. The knives are out for Ford but his game with ball in hand was good.

I do feel that Ford is getting unfair flack because he's one of the old guard, bar his two drop goal attempts in play he was good. He and Mitchell were composed and bossed the game. Kicking off the tee was pretty woeful and unFord like. Be interesting to see what Borthwick does but I wouldn't be surprised if he kept it as is.

Old guard or not his attacking threat is restricted to his passing ability ( which has never been doubted). Outside of that, meh

Agreed. I've always said about Ford that what he CAN do is top drawer whereas what he DOES do is disappointing. SB, reportedly, was planning to start the 6N with Marcus and Fin with Ford as 3rd choice cover. Reverting to that is the way to go.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:17 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:43 am It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

Worried that they'd have to run at the England defence after he'd turned the ball back over to them.

Hats off to Steely Balls, he backed his tactics and players, ignored a lot of what the former pros in the media were demanding. Delivered in style.

What pissed me off about Furbank was after he got turned over the first time he then went and repeated it. That said his presence does give our attack a lot more threat- which is something we have all been wanting

Furbank is brilliant when the opposition kick long. Given time time to run it back he has the pace, vision and playmaking skills to cause carnage.

His error count is a concern though. Some of his turnovers were really dim, you can't run into international forwards (multiple) and not expect to get munched and turned over. It wasn't like he only did it once. His placement of the ball on the floor wasn't good either, which has been a common England issue previously. Forgetting where he was and catching that ball off the pitch to give Ireland field position in the second half was careless and I'm at a loss to what he was doing for Lowe's second try bar trying to avoid having to be in position to miss another tackle.

He's a frustrating player. So much good and so much so bad.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:19 amOld guard or not his attacking threat is restricted to his passing ability ( which has never been doubted).

And his brain, and his match-situation-awareness, and his playmaking, and his game management, and his territorial kicking...


I'm a big fan of FSmith, and a moderate one of MSmith*, but if either had played that game and done exactly the same thing in the same situations, including the missed kicks, we'd be lauding them to high heaven (and pointing out that the missed kicks are a rarity).
Had Farrell done so, we'd all have been here apologising, and marvelling at his newfound powers.


* I'm told that he's really added game management to his repertoire, and once I've seen it for myself, I'll become a big fan.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:33 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:19 amOld guard or not his attacking threat is restricted to his passing ability ( which has never been doubted).

And his brain, and his vision, and his game management, and his territorial kicking...


I'm a big fan of FSmith, and a moderate one of MSmith*, but if either had played that game and done exactly the same thing in the same situations, including the missed kicks, we'd be lauding them to high heaven (and pointing out that the missed kicks are a rarity).
Had Farrell done so, we'd all have been here apologising, and marvelling at his newfound powers.


* I'm told that he's really added game management to his repertoire, and once I've seen it for myself, I'll become a big fan.

Really?
Wow. We do have a low bar

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:22 am In case you missed it.

aged well

Given how much sharper and snappier everything was yesterday, you do wonder if there's been a continuation of the Jones / pre world cup approach to beasting the players physically up to the Scotland game, with a planned taper off for this weekend and next.

Damn. That was pretty entertaining. I actually got a prediction of an upset correct for once.

I definitely needed that after the shocking display from the perennial Calcutta cup holders.

Plus Chessum at 6 went pretty well I thought. Easily his best game so far, but a shame about the injury to him and CCS. I guess Roots (and Coles on the bench?) will come back in with little disruption though.

Itoje and Martin as a pairing in the second row is really doing it for me. Itoje behaving like a colossal prick at every single breakdown and Martin just hammering people in contact. Beautiful.

England definitely do look like they’re improving each week. I really want to see them back this up though. We know they can bring that fire for a game or so when the pressure is on, but doing it consistently is another question. I feel like some of you see this performance as having reached our new standard under Borthwick, which I hope is true but will need a bit more evidence of.

Happy for Care to get a 100, he should have gotten there already in his career but let’s face it he’s done. I guess he’ll see out the 6 nations so Spencer doesn’t have to play but then we really have to look elsewhere. I’m torn on Smith/Ford though, as the current half-back pairings have a lot more balance to them.

I love this wing combo. Do we not feel like Steward might do a bit better now having two serious running threats alongside him? Or are they just looking so good because of Furbank sparking things?

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:57 am I love this wing combo. Do we not feel like Steward might do a bit better now having two serious running threats alongside him? Or are they just looking so good because of Furbank sparking things?

I would say that the opposition defence knowing they can't cheat themselves half a yard to cover the wingers anymore, as Furbank has the pace to make a half gap a big break, makes a big difference, as does Lawrence offering running threat in the centres.

My worry would be if Roots does have to come back in from Chessum, and CCS is out too, the mobility and ability of the pack to support them is going to be very much tested.

16th man wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:04 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:57 am I love this wing combo. Do we not feel like Steward might do a bit better now having two serious running threats alongside him? Or are they just looking so good because of Furbank sparking things?

I would say that the opposition defence knowing they can't cheat themselves half a yard to cover the wingers anymore, as Furbank has the pace to make a half gap a big break, makes a big difference, as does Lawrence offering running threat in the centres.

My worry would be if Roots does have to come back in from Chessum, and CCS is out too, the mobility and ability of the pack to support them is going to be very much tested.

Maybe, SB will shock us with a call-up for Mercer or, better still, Jack Willis (under emergency protocol).

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:13 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:08 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:29 am BTW, Ford ran the backs really well I thought- he created our first try after Furbank launched the counter.

True. The knives are out for Ford but his game with ball in hand was good.

I do feel that Ford is getting unfair flack because he's one of the old guard, bar his two drop goal attempts in play he was good. He and Mitchell were composed and bossed the game. Kicking off the tee was pretty woeful and unFord like. Be interesting to see what Borthwick does but I wouldn't be surprised if he kept it as is.

agreed. Ford has always been a great 10 for getting a backline moving, strongest part of his game. He's been kicking too much for club and country in recent years, under orders.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:17 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:43 am It is maybe time to give SB some credit. The majority on here would not have done some of what he did for this match:

Picking Chessum at 6 - a huge factor in stopping Ireland from their usual control. Packing down at 8 for Irish put-in seemed to boost pack.
Retaining Furbank (just a club standard player?????) - always had Ireland worried when on the ball.
Retaining Centres - both outplayed their opposite numbers which takes some doing.

Yes, there are areas to improve but at last the XV was the sum of its parts and the mentality was right.

Earl was exceptional, outplaying Doris to an extent rarely (if ever) achieved.

Worried that they'd have to run at the England defence after he'd turned the ball back over to them.

Hats off to Steely Balls, he backed his tactics and players, ignored a lot of what the former pros in the media were demanding. Delivered in style.

What pissed me off about Furbank was after he got turned over the first time he then went and repeated it. That said his presence does give our attack a lot more threat- which is something we have all been wanting

he 'got turned over' because his support runners were standing having look from what I remember....but he tries stuff, and needs help. When players start to react better to unpredictable outcomes, we'll take a huge leap forward.