RugbyRebels

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:44 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:30 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:13 am

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

I was surprised by that comment, especially in relation to 10, 12, 13. Fair enough if you have picked a young combo, but before that combo from today has 15 starts together I imagine at least one amd maybe two of them will have been replaced.

I've been thinking about this and I think Borthwick might not be doing the team any favours by trying to simplify the attack. A lot of it seems to depend on powerful runners making ground but that relies on passes being slick phase after phase and runners timing their runs right. One or two aren't right or you get slow ball and, at international level, you grind to a complete halt. England then don't have much deception. In a way, being more complex and having more strike plays might be a bit simpler as it doesn't depend on repeated perfection.

I commented on that one earlier- ludicrous comment, he chose that combo, when he didn't have to--- and it was compounded by Lawrence being out of position and 'rusty'.

Our attack is badly coached imo, IDK if SB has any clue there anyway tbh. One of the pundits said exactly as you did on deception- the try we scored in the second half came simply from the blind side wing coming late onto pass on a subtle angle....not pre rehearsed either.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:30 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:13 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:00 am It was ‘interesting’ how we defaulted to kick and chase as soon as things started going wrong. It’s all very well picking Furbank to start, throwing on CCS etc but if your gameplan and prep doesn’t empower them…

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

One minor aspect seems to me to sum up the concerns you express in the last paragraph. If we are chasing the game and the SH has to be told by the ref to 'use it' then, by definition, the players are clueless. Where was the on-field leadership?

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:47 am

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:44 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:30 am

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

I was surprised by that comment, especially in relation to 10, 12, 13. Fair enough if you have picked a young combo, but before that combo from today has 15 starts together I imagine at least one amd maybe two of them will have been replaced.

I've been thinking about this and I think Borthwick might not be doing the team any favours by trying to simplify the attack. A lot of it seems to depend on powerful runners making ground but that relies on passes being slick phase after phase and runners timing their runs right. One or two aren't right or you get slow ball and, at international level, you grind to a complete halt. England then don't have much deception. In a way, being more complex and having more strike plays might be a bit simpler as it doesn't depend on repeated perfection.

I commented on that one earlier- ludicrous comment, he chose that combo, when he didn't have to--- and it was compounded by Lawrence being out of position and 'rusty'.

Our attack is badly coached imo, IDK if SB has any clue there anyway tbh. One of the pundits said exactly as you did on deception- the try we scored in the second half came simply from the blind side wing coming late onto pass on a subtle angle....not pre rehearsed either.

So, are we at that familiar stage where the coaching makes the players worse? Or, is there still mileage in the 'transitional' claims?

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:30 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:13 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:00 am It was ‘interesting’ how we defaulted to kick and chase as soon as things started going wrong. It’s all very well picking Furbank to start, throwing on CCS etc but if your gameplan and prep doesn’t empower them…

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

Absolutely. I just sat there as each one of those painful minutes ticked by in disbelief to what we were so ponderously doing.

And yes, though I still believe Lawrence can work at 12, the reason for selection looked absolutely pointless.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 9:07 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:47 am

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:44 am

I was surprised by that comment, especially in relation to 10, 12, 13. Fair enough if you have picked a young combo, but before that combo from today has 15 starts together I imagine at least one amd maybe two of them will have been replaced.

I've been thinking about this and I think Borthwick might not be doing the team any favours by trying to simplify the attack. A lot of it seems to depend on powerful runners making ground but that relies on passes being slick phase after phase and runners timing their runs right. One or two aren't right or you get slow ball and, at international level, you grind to a complete halt. England then don't have much deception. In a way, being more complex and having more strike plays might be a bit simpler as it doesn't depend on repeated perfection.

I commented on that one earlier- ludicrous comment, he chose that combo, when he didn't have to--- and it was compounded by Lawrence being out of position and 'rusty'.

Our attack is badly coached imo, IDK if SB has any clue there anyway tbh. One of the pundits said exactly as you did on deception- the try we scored in the second half came simply from the blind side wing coming late onto pass on a subtle angle....not pre rehearsed either.

So, are we at that familiar stage where the coaching makes the players worse? Or, is there still mileage in the 'transitional' claims?

SB has had over a year in charge.

Frankly his record is very poor. There doesnt look to have been any significant development in our play. Good players are under performing. The team look short of ideas and leadership. Basic errors abound.

I'm all for giving a new coach time and he had a big job on his hands after Jones last couple of years, but I just want to see something really positive that I can hang my hat on. Just something....

Do you think Jamie George is the man to captain England? It seems to me a no-nonsense captain like Martin Johnson is what’s needed to get the message home, but I don’t know if there’s anyone of that ilk anymore. Can’t help thinking that Jonno would’ve laid down the law at halftime and demanded in no uncertain terms what was expected of his players.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:12 am Do you think Jamie George is the man to captain England? It seems to me a no-nonsense captain like Martin Johnson is what’s needed to get the message home, but I don’t know if there’s anyone of that ilk anymore. Can’t help thinking that Jonno would’ve laid down the law at halftime and demanded in no uncertain terms what was expected of his players.

In the Wales game when George went off the commentary team said that Itoje was the captain. I did not hear anything about it yesterday. My preference would be a forward who does the 80 and is a first-choice selection. Itoje it should be. Previously, it has been reported that he does not want it but if he IS taking over from George perhaps that no longer applies.

If LCD is fully fit should George be first choice for the 2 shirt anyway?

I think we can see why Itoje shouldn’t be captain.

There is such a big gap between the carefully manicured puff pieces in the telegraph about how the latest england skills coach is a world class genius and the players bumbling around dropping the ball and throwing panicked hospital passes.

I understand these are skills that are learned over a life time, not just a few sessions. The gap remains though.

It really feels like as a (top tier) country our basic skill levels must be the lowest. Not just for a few years but long term. Do you think the youngsters are an improvement?

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:51 am There is such a big gap between the carefully manicured puff pieces in the telegraph about how the latest england skills coach is a world class genius and the players bumbling around dropping the ball and throwing panicked hospital passes.

I understand these are skills that are learned over a life time, not just a few sessions. The gap remains though.

It really feels like as a (top tier) country our basic skill levels must be the lowest. Not just for a few years but long term. Do you think the youngsters are an improvement?

How much of it is a confidence thing? The handling was pretty slick for Furbank's try - very early in the game, obviously.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 9:14 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:30 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:13 am

The game plan had little to no connect to the use of the bench.

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

Absolutely. I just sat there as each one of those painful minutes ticked by in disbelief to what we were so ponderously doing.

And yes, though I still believe Lawrence can work at 12, the reason for selection looked absolutely pointless.

lawrence theoretically could work as a gainline carrier at 12, he just looks very uncomfortable there, and it knocked on to Slade as well. Is Ollie actually any good is a rhetorical question...

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:08 am

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:51 am There is such a big gap between the carefully manicured puff pieces in the telegraph about how the latest england skills coach is a world class genius and the players bumbling around dropping the ball and throwing panicked hospital passes.

I understand these are skills that are learned over a life time, not just a few sessions. The gap remains though.

It really feels like as a (top tier) country our basic skill levels must be the lowest. Not just for a few years but long term. Do you think the youngsters are an improvement?

How much of it is a confidence thing? The handling was pretty slick for Furbank's try - very early in the game, obviously.

That was a lovely strike move straight of the training ground wasn't it. Concerning we couldn't seem to bring anything else out the play book over the course of the game.

been banging on about skills and decision making for years, esp under intl conditions. Its why Eddie cut our cloth accordingly, and successfully til he lost the plot.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:11 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 9:14 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:30 am

whole thing lacks any connection and cohesion.

By the way, Slightly Bemusing was going on about it being a young side.....really? Hardly the first rodeo for Genge, Marler, George, Cole, Stuart, Itoje, Underhill, Earl, Care, Ford, Daly, Slade.....Chessum and Martin have good intl experience, and Spencer and Furbank hardly young. Even Freeman is pretty experienced, tho should have 10 more caps at least.

I'll grant that there are some tyros in CCS, Fin Smith and IFW....but the core has huge experience.

Still can't quite believe what I was watching in the last 10 minutes- absolutely no urgency or willingness to chase the game ball in hand. Even with our put in at scrums, we fannied about, didn't engage properly; took 30-45 seconds to bang any penalties into touch, took ages to get to the lineout. Zero game awareness- its zombie like. Over analysed, over coached yet under prepared.

Absolutely. I just sat there as each one of those painful minutes ticked by in disbelief to what we were so ponderously doing.

And yes, though I still believe Lawrence can work at 12, the reason for selection looked absolutely pointless.

lawrence theoretically could work as a gainline carrier at 12, he just looks very uncomfortable there, and it knocked on to Slade as well. Is Ollie actually any good is a rhetorical question...

A good question, but yes I think he is. I actually think Slade had a dreadful game and not sure it can be laid fully on Lawrence being at 12.

Does SB stick or twist now.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:14 am been banging on about skills and decision making for years, esp under intl conditions. Its why Eddie cut our cloth accordingly, and successfully til he lost the plot.

Is it reasonable to ask why players from our premier league don't look to lack the basic skills playing for Wales and Scotland?

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:12 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:08 am

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:51 am There is such a big gap between the carefully manicured puff pieces in the telegraph about how the latest england skills coach is a world class genius and the players bumbling around dropping the ball and throwing panicked hospital passes.

I understand these are skills that are learned over a life time, not just a few sessions. The gap remains though.

It really feels like as a (top tier) country our basic skill levels must be the lowest. Not just for a few years but long term. Do you think the youngsters are an improvement?

How much of it is a confidence thing? The handling was pretty slick for Furbank's try - very early in the game, obviously.

That was a lovely strike move straight of the training ground wasn't it. Concerning we couldn't seem to bring anything else out the play book over the course of the game.

Bloody awful defending though. White and VDM guilty

From Matt Dawson on the BBC website:

"We had so much experience at half-back with nearly 200 caps between [scrum-half] Danny Care and [fly-half] George Ford but we didn't make the most of 60% possession we had at one stage.

It's just about decision-making. I can see the intent and I think England are going in the right direction, but these glimpses of brilliance are too infrequent and glimpses alone do not win Test matches.

Ben Spencer comes on at scrum-half and immediately goes into box-kicking mode on the halfway line and I'm not sure I've ever seen him do that for his club Bath.

It's the same with Fin Smith, who plays in a brilliant Northampton team who have ripped teams apart in the Premiership this season.

Impose yourself in the team. We want to see some fresh blood and we want to see them doing what they are good at.

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso still has that naivety to do what he knows he is good at. He played like the field was his own and didn't care what wing he was on, he wanted to get the ball in his hands and play.

Particularly within the English game, it sort of gets coached out of you a little bit the longer you're in the squad because everyone reverts to what the coaches want so they have longevity in the jersey."

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:29 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:14 am been banging on about skills and decision making for years, esp under intl conditions. Its why Eddie cut our cloth accordingly, and successfully til he lost the plot.

Is it reasonable to ask why players from our premier league don't look to lack the basic skills playing for Wales and Scotland?

Although are any of the ones produced by the English age grade system particularly skilful?

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:12 amCan’t help thinking that Jonno would’ve laid down the law at halftime and demanded in no uncertain terms what was expected of his players.

Like who? Farrell? I don’t think we really know what the expectations or the message is. I don’t think “stop dropping the ball” or “stop giving away stupid penalties” is ever a demand that is actually going to solve problems. It wouldn’t matter if it was Johnson or McCaw or whoever saying it.

The players just look absolutely clueless outside of anything pre-rehearsed.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 12:15 pm

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:12 amCan’t help thinking that Jonno would’ve laid down the law at halftime and demanded in no uncertain terms what was expected of his players.

Like who? Farrell? I don’t think we really know what the expectations or the message is. I don’t think “stop dropping the ball” or “stop giving away stupid penalties” is ever a demand that is actually going to solve problems. It wouldn’t matter if it was Johnson or McCaw or whoever saying it.

The players just look absolutely clueless outside of anything pre-rehearsed.

If the training/coaching was as feeble as we are implying, you'd expect some word of it to have been reported. Maybe, it is as simple as the coaching being OK but not good enough to inspire. Presumably, after decades of just that, there are checks ongoing. There must be some sort of agreed improvement targets.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:29 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:14 am been banging on about skills and decision making for years, esp under intl conditions. Its why Eddie cut our cloth accordingly, and successfully til he lost the plot.

Is it reasonable to ask why players from our premier league don't look to lack the basic skills playing for Wales and Scotland?

kinda, but they aren't much of a cut above ours even so. Plus not that many in those sides from our league iirc, and its also about decision making. We also compound basic skills deficit with robotic adherence to doing the wrong thing badly

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 12:15 pm

francoisfou wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:12 amCan’t help thinking that Jonno would’ve laid down the law at halftime and demanded in no uncertain terms what was expected of his players.

Like who? Farrell? I don’t think we really know what the expectations or the message is. I don’t think “stop dropping the ball” or “stop giving away stupid penalties” is ever a demand that is actually going to solve problems. It wouldn’t matter if it was Johnson or McCaw or whoever saying it.

The players just look absolutely clueless outside of anything pre-rehearsed.

intriguingly penalty count is plummeting

I found it hard to know what we were doing in attack - especially late on. I think this is because we got turned-over, dropped the ball, kicked it away or threw it into touch before we got going. I'm sure there was a play on/after 70 mins where we had an attacking lineout near the 22 and we got turned over after first or second phase. Teams get turned over - but surely you can plan the first few phases of a lineout move, this shouldn't happen. In fact our first try was from perfectly executing a move which makes this more annoying.

All the Scotland tries came from our errors if I'm remembering rightly and at least 2 of those completely unforced. Scotland did well to execute when given the chances but it's us handing them those chances. It was quite clear when there is a moment of broken play (bouncing ball, scruffy kick tennis, ball thrown into player's face bouncing to the opposition etc) that the defensive system isn't able to cope with that. We can't close spaces quickly and the defence is complete pigs ear. There were a lot of tackles missed but my memory is that most tries came from this type of transition, so this needs to be worked on. Along with throwing and catching.

There were moments of brightness but we usually did something dull straight after. IFW had a positive impact on every touch and should be a stick-on selection for the next game. Getting him in space or running into a broken field would be a good idea.

I'm going to stick to my original thoughts after sleeping on it.

When play was structured, we were easily the best team. We controlled the ruck game, our defense pushed Scotland backward or turned over possession, and our defensive rucks were excellent.

But after 10-15 minutes, Scotland recognized what was happening and started to kick it. Kick it, kick it, kick it. Meaning our defenders were not organized. And as soon as it was broken game...we were utter dogshit.

I mean, we were amateur as soon as we weren't playing to the book.

And when there was broken field in front of us? Kick it. Get some organization back because we cannot possible even THINK about what to do when it's not structured.

This is a catastrophic failure of coaching.

We've played two frankly terrible international teams. And now we come up against a frankly not very good Scotland team with 1 trick...and get dry humped.

We're at the same standard Italy were in the Diego Dominguez days. Embarrassing.

Just done a quick check and the record winning margin for Ireland at Twickenham is 17. I would suggest that will be changing in a fortnight.