The Great Big England A Thread

[Scrumhead]

I think it depends whether you’re a player with a genuine shot of being elevated to the senior squad or not. We’ve already seen it used as a pathway for the likes of CCS, Baxter and Murley. On today’s performance, I wouldn’t rule out Kenningham continuing the Quins A squad to senior promotion route.

For others like Shillcock (not picking on him here), it probably is a waste of time.

Then you have others like Lockett who go from being off the radar to being considered an interesting prospect. I liked that he got MOM. He definitely got through a ton of useful work.

[Mr Mwenda]

Score updates? Putting the Irish away? Close?

[FKAS]

so it both begs questions and doesn't ?

I'm pretty non plussed by it, and I gather the players are too. Is it an audition for the first team, and if so, how meaningful is it given its a 'one off, scratch side'. If it was a genuine bridge between U20 and senior squads say, then maybe makes more sense. I guess its nice for some players to feel they are being recognised. I 'm just confused about it's purpose, and given player welfare concerns etc etc

You'd hope they'd do a session with the first team as a bit of a practice game. Get feedback from the first team fitness staff about what levels they need. Get feedback from coaches about areas of work ons. It's a good exercise for mainly young EQ talent to stake a claim and stay connected with the current England setup. Similar with the coaches.

coaches I guess...but its such a hotch potch of players...and no connection with the 1's Ive seen.

Genuine q, how many of the 10 (36-23 +3) senior omissions are in the squad.

Murley, Langdon, Pollock, Heyes and I'm sure I'm missing some others have been called up to the full senior squad having played for the A side.

[p/d]

21-12

[p/d]

Not sure if I’m correct but no score between 25 min and 74min

[Banquo]

You'd hope they'd do a session with the first team as a bit of a practice game. Get feedback from the first team fitness staff about what levels they need. Get feedback from coaches about areas of work ons. It's a good exercise for mainly young EQ talent to stake a claim and stay connected with the current England setup. Similar with the coaches.

coaches I guess...but its such a hotch potch of players...and no connection with the 1's Ive seen.

Genuine q, how many of the 10 (36-23 +3) senior omissions are in the squad.

Murley, Langdon, Pollock, Heyes and I'm sure I'm missing some others have been called up to the full senior squad having played for the A side.

Missed the point- I was asking how many of the 10 spare players from the senior squad dropped down to a squad? I don’t know.

[Mr Mwenda]

21-12

Ta

[Scrumhead]

coaches I guess...but its such a hotch potch of players...and no connection with the 1's Ive seen.

Genuine q, how many of the 10 (36-23 +3) senior omissions are in the squad.

Murley, Langdon, Pollock, Heyes and I'm sure I'm missing some others have been called up to the full senior squad having played for the A side.

Missed the point- I was asking how many of the 10 spare players from the senior squad dropped down to a squad? I don’t know.

I don’t think anyone did. Which I’d agree was a missed opportunity. Definitely for Beard who would have been a far better pick than Butt who was fine but is highly unlikely to make at senior level. Even more so when that probably would have paired him with Ojomoh at 12.

[Banquo]

Murley, Langdon, Pollock, Heyes and I'm sure I'm missing some others have been called up to the full senior squad having played for the A side.

Missed the point- I was asking how many of the 10 spare players from the senior squad dropped down to a squad? I don’t know.

I don’t think anyone did. Which I’d agree was a missed opportunity. Definitely for Beard who would have been a far better pick than Butt who was fine but is highly unlikely to make at senior level.

Which is one of the questions begged frankly.

[Scrumhead]

It’s like many things with England … some good ideas but questionable execution.

I like rotating coaches and giving people like Blackett a chance but using it as a pathway is of dubious value when the playing style is so different to the seniors.

Still, I’d prefer to have it than not have it.

[Banquo]

It’s like many things with England … some good ideas but questionable execution.

I like rotating coaches and giving people like Blackett a chance but using it as a pathway is of dubious value when the playing style is so different to the seniors.

Still, I’d prefer to have it than not have it.

Kind of. How about we actually do it properly or not at all!!

[Scrumhead]

So what would doing it properly look like?

Personally I think the net benefit of already having had several players come through this route outweighs any negatives.

[Banquo]

So what would doing it properly look like?

Personally I think the net benefit of already having had several players come through this route outweighs any negatives.

A full A side, with a set of fixtures. I think saying several players have come through this route is stretching it somewhat. Unless I’ve missed more than one prior a team fixture recently which is possible. Are you thinking of Murley? As far as I can tell, all the players who trained with the senior squad were all on the radar anyway.
I’m just bemused by the side fielded today. I suppose it gives close up sight of players in a different environment? And I hope they build on it in more thought thru way.

[fivepointer]

I'm in favour of these games. Gives players and coaches a chance to test themselves in a different environment. Todays side was a long way off what would have been a genuine A side but they did well enough and won with something to spare. If a few kick on and make the senior squad, then that is the payoff. All the back row looked good, the centres went well and Lockett emerged with credit in the bank. JVP led the side well and getting him involved is hopefully a sign that he'll be back with the senior side soon.

[Banquo]

ITodays side was a long way off what would have been a genuine A side

But why. My point is if it’s not a top level game or a step up from prem, what are you proving?

I support the games as a principle, but practically needs to be better thought through and properly meaningful!!

[Scrumhead]

So what would doing it properly look like?

Personally I think the net benefit of already having had several players come through this route outweighs any negatives.

A full A side, with a set of fixtures. I think saying several players have come through this route is stretching it somewhat. Unless I’ve missed more than one prior a team fixture recently which is possible. Are you thinking of Murley? As far as I can tell, all the players who trained with the senior squad were all on the radar anyway.
I’m just bemused by the side fielded today. I suppose it gives close up sight of players in a different environment? And I hope they build on it in more thought thru way.

How is it ‘stretching it’? Even if you discount Murley who had been in senior squads but never been capped, CCS, Baxter and AOF have been capped following A games. You could argue that it might have happened either way but we’ll never know.

What was bemusing? I think we could have picked a slightly more useful side today, but I’d only have changed 3 (Rodd for Brantingham, AOF for Kloska and Beard for Butt - with Ojomoh at 12) and without being mean, some players are there purely because of injuries to others - Fasogbon almost certainly would have been in ahead of Kloska or Green for example.

I also think these games are very useful for those on the fringes to press their claims - particularly those who don’t get to play Champions’ Cup rugby.

In a week where we’ve just had Ted Hill covering lock from the bench because at least 3 players were unavailable (Martin, Coles, Isiekwe), I’d argue the importance of building depth is pretty clear.

[Banquo]

So what would doing it properly look like?

Personally I think the net benefit of already having had several players come through this route outweighs any negatives.

A full A side, with a set of fixtures. I think saying several players have come through this route is stretching it somewhat. Unless I’ve missed more than one prior a team fixture recently which is possible. Are you thinking of Murley? As far as I can tell, all the players who trained with the senior squad were all on the radar anyway.
I’m just bemused by the side fielded today. I suppose it gives close up sight of players in a different environment? And I hope they build on it in more thought thru way.

How is it ‘stretching it’? Even if you discount Murley who had been in senior squads but never been capped, CCS, Baxter and AOF have been capped following A games. You could argue that it might have happened either way but we’ll never know.

What was bemusing? I think we could have picked a slightly more useful side today, but I’d only have changed 3 (Rodd for Brantingham, AOF for Kloska and Beard for Butt - with Ojomoh at 12) and without being mean, some players are there purely because of injuries to others - Fasogbon almost certainly would have been in ahead of Kloska or Green for example.

I also think these games are very useful for those on the fringes to press their claims - particularly those who don’t get to play Champions’ Cup rugby.

In a week where we’ve just had Ted Hill covering lock from the bench because at least 3 players were unavailable (Martin, Coles, Isiekwe), I’d argue the importance of building depth is pretty clear.

Daft thing is I agree on the likely value of these games, and you agree they should be better organised- as in you said opportunity missed iirc?
Don’t disagree on depth either. But does at best a third/4th string scratch run out do that.

As I said I must have missed some previous a games eg the one after which CCs was capped (must have been a year or so ago).
This game just seemed a bit pointless given the selection.

The bemusement comes from exactly what you said about missed opportunities and also some strange calls frankly eg no Seb Atkinson

[Captainhaircut]

I think it’s a useful exercise to look at both coaches and players but would be great to see more games and against better sides.

Would be great to be playing a full “a” six nations but we wouldn’t be able to get Wales, Scotland or Italy to agree since they tap our player pool and wouldn’t want increase our ability to capture players. Also probably don’t have the depth. French league is still playing too so they wouldn’t agree either.

Maybe in a non Lions year we could get some A games in the summer. Bring back the Churchill cup?

[Banquo]

So in summary, good idea, more and better please?

[jimKRFC]

Was at the match and it wasn't too bad. Very stop/start as Ireland were regularly needing treatment after tackles.

Neither side was very cohesive, Not unexpected given the lack of prep time.

Englands best player was Lockett with Ojomoh the best of the backs.

Can't see what the fuss is about Langdon, was ok at set piece and pretty ananomous in the loose.

JVP had 3 box kicks make no ground, one got England penalized for not retreating, thus is unfit for international rugby.... Did take his try nicely thought, a break from an unguarded ruck, but was nearly caught and just managed to slide over the line.

A fair result but not a thriller!

[Yorkie]

It was Will Porter, not JVP, who made the (very) poor box kick where England were penalised for nor retreating.

[jimKRFC]

It was Will Porter, not JVP, who made the (very) poor box kick where England were penalised for nor retreating.

Apologies, you are correct on that.

JVP did however make almost no ground on a couple.

[FKAS]

It was Will Porter, not JVP, who made the (very) poor box kick where England were penalised for nor retreating.

Apologies, you are correct on that.

JVP did however make almost no ground on a couple.

The only one I remember him slicing was because Kloska left the breakdown early and JvP had to step around him to kick. He had more time than he thought and didn't need to rush it but given his previous for being charged down was a bit panicky about getting it away. We somehow managed to reclaim that box kick which was fortuitous.