Ireland vs England - Sat 4.45pm

[Mellsblue]

What about the other half time talks, adjustments etc when we’ve subsequently been blown away. Our second half points difference when excluding Japan is horrific.
I wonder if Ireland, France, SA etc sit back after a loss, rare as they are for them, and think that the other team are allowed to be good. Isn’t the entire idea of sport, let alone test rugby, to be better than the other team.
No one is asking us to win every second half, to out think the oppo with adjustments every match but for it to happen semi regularly would be lovely.

Weren't we behind at halftime for the majority of our games last year? I thought the pattern was that we came back in the second half and then lost it in the last 20 minutes after a Ben Earl mistake?

I also don't think we're suggesting that the team should be relaxed about losing a game away from home to the second ranked side in the world. However, I am suggesting that maybe the fans should be slightly more relaxed.

Puja

I thought the pattern was winning at 40/50/60 mins only for us to fall away. Regardless, we do get good starts only to be behind at 80mins. I don’t care where adjustments come within a match as long as we have more points at the end.
I’m pretty relaxed, if very frustrated, but this ‘the other team is allowed to be good’ argument is ridiculous when discussing a test team with all the advantages Eng has at its disposal that has the win:loss ratio this lot are putting up whilst repeating the same mistakes/following the same pattern over and over again.

[Puja]

I’m pretty relaxed, if very frustrated, but this ‘the other team is allowed to be good’ argument is ridiculous when discussing a test team with all the advantages Eng has at its disposal that has the win:loss ratio this lot are putting up whilst repeating the same mistakes/following the same pattern over and over again.

The bolded bit is the thing that makes me want to come over to your side. In isolation, the only defeat that I'm annoyed about is the Australia one, and none of them are "sack the coach" levels of bad. Each game individually displays a very good team that's clearly building something and offers grounds for optimism about what's coming in the future. But taken as a whole, it's 2 wins from the last 9, and 0 from 7 against decent opposition. It's all very well being promising, but at some point it has to be delivered.

The coaching merry-go-round has not helped and does make me want to treat this as the first game where the El Abd system is properly in place, rather than linking it to what's come before, but it's really bloody hard to ignore that record.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I’m pretty relaxed, if very frustrated, but this ‘the other team is allowed to be good’ argument is ridiculous when discussing a test team with all the advantages Eng has at its disposal that has the win:loss ratio this lot are putting up whilst repeating the same mistakes/following the same pattern over and over again.

The bolded bit is the thing that makes me want to come over to your side. In isolation, the only defeat that I'm annoyed about is the Australia one, and none of them are "sack the coach" levels of bad. Each game individually displays a very good team that's clearly building something and offers grounds for optimism about what's coming in the future. But taken as a whole, it's 2 wins from the last 9, and 0 from 7 against decent opposition. It's all very well being promising, but at some point it has to be delivered.

The coaching merry-go-round has not helped and does make me want to treat this as the first game where the El Abd system is properly in place, rather than linking it to what's come before, but it's really bloody hard to ignore that record.

Puja

Agree with all of that. The thing that is really annoying me is that same pattern is being repeated and, quelle surprise, we end up with the same result. If I’m meeting you halfway, the centres going well is a step in the right direction and went from a negative to a plus, and the defence was very good considering it’s two weeks old albeit clearly needs tweaking. I’m rooting for El-Abd for a number of reasons.

[Scrumhead]

Thirded.

I’m conflicted on Borthwick.

I’m not convinced he is the right guy at this moment in time. However, I do think he has the right approach to succeed in the longer term, so it feels a bit like a ‘no pain, no gain’ scenario. That’s why the supporting cast is so important and why it’s so frustrating that we haven’t made better appointments in those roles.

That said, I’d like El Abd to succeed, even if it’s simply to give two fingers to everyone who poo-pooed his appointment (me included).

Our W/L record is becoming a horror show that will probably get even worse before it gets better, but I’m prepared to grin and bear it to some degree because I want to believe it’s close to clicking.

Honestly, I find all the noise and hysteria around the defeats way harder than the defeats themselves.

[Banquo]

Thirded.

I’m conflicted on Borthwick.

I’m not convinced he is the right guy at this moment in time. However, I do think he has the right approach to succeed in the longer term, so it feels a bit like a ‘no pain, no gain’ scenario. That’s why the supporting cast is so important and why it’s so frustrating that we haven’t made better appointments in those roles.

That said, I’d like El Abd to succeed, even if it’s simply to give two fingers to everyone who poo-pooed his appointment (me included).

Our W/L record is becoming a horror show that will probably get even worse before it gets better, but I’m prepared to grin and bear it to some degree because I want to believe it’s close to clicking.

Honestly, I find all the noise and hysteria around the defeats way harder than the defeats themselves.

hysteria? really?

[Scrumhead]

Yes. Not so much here, but so much of what I’ve read is just negative crap with few proposed solutions other than ‘allow the players in France to play’, which I strongly suspect would make very little difference in the short term and cause much bigger problems in the long term.

[Mikey Brown]

Our W/L record is becoming a horror show that will probably get even worse before it gets better, but I’m prepared to grin and bear it to some degree because I want to believe it’s close to clicking.

Honestly, I find all the noise and hysteria around the defeats way harder than the defeats themselves.

Yep. Well put.

I think I hadn’t actually realised how bad the win ratio was until I saw it mentioned in this thread earlier, because since about 2018 there has been near-constant bleating about the England team/coach. Much of it deserved, but still.

[Spiffy]

I’m pretty relaxed, if very frustrated, but this ‘the other team is allowed to be good’ argument is ridiculous when discussing a test team with all the advantages Eng has at its disposal that has the win:loss ratio this lot are putting up whilst repeating the same mistakes/following the same pattern over and over again.

The bolded bit is the thing that makes me want to come over to your side. In isolation, the only defeat that I'm annoyed about is the Australia one, and none of them are "sack the coach" levels of bad. Each game individually displays a very good team that's clearly building something and offers grounds for optimism about what's coming in the future. But taken as a whole, it's 2 wins from the last 9, and 0 from 7 against decent opposition. It's all very well being promising, but at some point it has to be delivered.

The coaching merry-go-round has not helped and does make me want to treat this as the first game where the El Abd system is properly in place, rather than linking it to what's come before, but it's really bloody hard to ignore that record.

Puja

Agree with all of that. The thing that is really annoying me is that same pattern is being repeated and, quelle surprise, we end up with the same result. If I’m meeting you halfway, the centres going well is a step in the right direction and went from a negative to a plus, and the defence was very good considering it’s two weeks old albeit clearly needs tweaking. I’m rooting for El-Abd for a number of reasons.

Good luck to El-Abd. But Slab Beak is the big boss and that's where the buck stops. He does seem pretty limited in both his record of lack of success and his overall vision and leadership in running an international team. He probably should go.

[Mellsblue]

The bolded bit is the thing that makes me want to come over to your side. In isolation, the only defeat that I'm annoyed about is the Australia one, and none of them are "sack the coach" levels of bad. Each game individually displays a very good team that's clearly building something and offers grounds for optimism about what's coming in the future. But taken as a whole, it's 2 wins from the last 9, and 0 from 7 against decent opposition. It's all very well being promising, but at some point it has to be delivered.

The coaching merry-go-round has not helped and does make me want to treat this as the first game where the El Abd system is properly in place, rather than linking it to what's come before, but it's really bloody hard to ignore that record.

Puja

Agree with all of that. The thing that is really annoying me is that same pattern is being repeated and, quelle surprise, we end up with the same result. If I’m meeting you halfway, the centres going well is a step in the right direction and went from a negative to a plus, and the defence was very good considering it’s two weeks old albeit clearly needs tweaking. I’m rooting for El-Abd for a number of reasons.

Good luck to El-Abd. But Slab Beak is the big boss and that's where the buck stops. He does seem pretty limited in both his record of lack of success and his overall vision and leadership in running an international team. He probably should go.

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

[Scrumhead]

Exactly. Personally, I think it would be better to invest in the set up around him. Partly because of the cost of canning, partly because there isn’t an obvious candidate and partly because I think Borthwick will eventually become a very successful top man. England’s Head Coach shouldn’t be learning on the job, but we are where we are.

El Abd deserves a bit of time and if last weekend is an indication of where his defence is going, I think there are some grounds for cautious optimism.

I’m not totally against Wigglesworth staying in some capacity but our attack remains poor. A specialist like Vesty or Blackett would make a big difference. I’m still annoyed that there were no obvious attempts to get the latter involved when he was a free agent.

TLDR: with no obvious alternative, it’s probably better to keep him and find better lieutenants.

[Oakboy]

. . . partly because I think Borthwick will eventually become a very successful top man.

I don't know whether to agree with that or not. If you are right he obviously should be retained. One concern might be whether the decision-makers at the RFU have the judgement to back him, if it is the case.

If SB is on track to get it right, I'd prefer more justifying communication output from him on how his long-term plans will take shape. His comments about experience compared with Ireland struck me as feeble.

0-7 against top tier opposition must be close to impossible to defend, I suppose. Could the best coaching crew ever invented have done better with our playing resources or was 0-7 par? I accuse SB of not getting the best out of the players, as do others. Can any England fan swallow such inferiority comfortably?

From here, what next? How do we measure success/failure? How do we set reasonable objectives?

Lose to France and it's 0-8. Lose to Scotland and it's 0-9 etc.

I suppose one area for optimism may be that the players do not seem downhearted. They may have made mistakes late in all seven games but they have never looked other than up for the fight.

[fivepointer]

Far early to talk of a replacement coach.

I think there are signs that this team are developing but they need a good result soon. Far too much of their good work is undermined by repeat failings, costly individual errors and a failure to grasp the key moments in games.

France might be too soon and frankly they look to be in a different league but the remaining 3 6N games are ones that we should be looking to win.

[Mellsblue]

. . . partly because I think Borthwick will eventually become a very successful top man.

I don't know whether to agree with that or not. If you are right he obviously should be retained. One concern might be whether the decision-makers at the RFU have the judgement to back him, if it is the case.

If SB is on track to get it right, I'd prefer more justifying communication output from him on how his long-term plans will take shape. His comments about experience compared with Ireland struck me as feeble.

0-7 against top tier opposition must be close to impossible to defend, I suppose. Could the best coaching crew ever invented have done better with our playing resources or was 0-7 par? I accuse SB of not getting the best out of the players, as do others. Can any England fan swallow such inferiority comfortably?

From here, what next? How do we measure success/failure? How do we set reasonable objectives?

Lose to France and it's 0-8. Lose to Scotland and it's 0-9 etc.

I suppose one area for optimism may be that the players do not seem downhearted. They may have made mistakes late in all seven games but they have never looked other than up for the fight.

On the plus side, even if we do lose to France and Scotland to make it 0-9 against top tier oppo, we’ll surely beat Italy and we’re then safe from going 0-10 against top tier oppo until the summer at the earliest.

[Mikey Brown]

Does anyone really know how the final call on assistant coaches is made? It seemed like Borthwick got "his guys" (within reason) when he first joined, but that was presumably restrained by budget and the horrific (self-inflicted) timing of it all. Is there anyone higher up than Borthwick who will say X coach isn't good enough, let's get Y coach from team Z? Does Borthwick have the control to make that call? Is it difficult because of his proximity to the coaching team?

My sense is Borthwick needs a big personality alongside him. He balanced Eddie Jones out a bit as his right-hand man and Sinfield could do the hype MC thing for him, but has stepped back considerably. Obviously it didn't work with Cockerill or Felix Jones, but you feel like Wiggler is more his protege than a balancing force of his own.

We've had the occasional flourish where it looks like Wigglesworth's attacking vision is coming together, but it's always short lived.

It's just mad thinking about how many guys have been in and out of the door recently, guys like Mitchell, Jones, Wisemantel, Waters, who seem very highly regarded. I don't want to make this an Eddie Jones conversation but obviously he was a big part of that. Then you've got Edwards who never made it in the door in the first place. At least Vesty appears to be on the radar.

[Scrumhead]

No two ways about it, the record is appalling. However, surely it’s just a reflection of where we are right now. In other words, we’re the 6th best side in test rugby who can compete with the top sides but can’t quite turn that into a win.

We very rarely get hammered and in recent times, we’re on the wrong side of single score games. It’s a shit place to be, but I think we’re also unfortunate that our drop off has occurred when other sides are peaking.

Every time we come close, we also get the same lines ‘Ireland weren’t at their best’, ‘that wasn’t SA’s strongest lineup’ etc. It’s tiresome.

I don’t know the solution but the main emotion I have is frustration because I honestly don’t see that we’re too far off.

[Puja]

Far early to talk of a replacement coach.

I think there are signs that this team are developing but they need a good result soon. Far too much of their good work is undermined by repeat failings, costly individual errors and a failure to grasp the key moments in games.

France might be too soon and frankly they look to be in a different league but the remaining 3 6N games are ones that we should be looking to win.

I would say we need to win either the France or Scotland game at a minimum - with the state of Wales at present and our record against Italy, wins in the other two games are utterly meaningless to us (and losses would be beyond the pale), so we need at least one meaningful victory to have some kind of proof of movement.

Frankly, considering both games are at home, we should be expecting two wins - the team is settled and mostly uninjured, the coaches have had three weeks with the players and, while both France and Scotland are good, we should be setting our expectations at beating them. But minimum standards is one victory.

Mind, having said that, I said the same back in the autumn, that minimum standards was one win vs NZ/Aus/SA and here I am, still defending him, so I don't really know where to go from there. I am wary about sacking him, cause I don't know who we can bring in to do better. I suppose we could hire Dowson/Vesty, but the RFU paying megabucks to poach a coaching team from their newly signed contract, after they won one Premiership title and whose side subsequently fell off the next year after losing several stalwarts to transfers, seems a bit on the nose if we're replacing the coaching team that the RFU paid megabucks to poach from their newly signed contract, after they won one Premiership title and whose side subsequently fell off the next year after losing several stalwarts to transfers. And that's assuming that they'd want it in the first place having seen the obloquy that Shaken Butnotstirred got in his tenure.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The target set by the RFU is four wins…
Absolutely agree on Dowson & Vesty. I think we’ve, albeit not you and FKAS, got to hope for The Wiggler to go to Leicester and a heavy hitter to replace him.

[Banquo]

Yes. Not so much here, but so much of what I’ve read is just negative crap with few proposed solutions other than ‘allow the players in France to play’, which I strongly suspect would make very little difference in the short term and cause much bigger problems in the long term.

Oh you mean the public view. Well ok

[Oakboy]

The target set by the RFU is four wins…
Absolutely agree on Dowson & Vesty. I think we’ve, albeit not you and FKAS, got to hope for The Wiggler to go to Leicester and a heavy hitter to replace him.

If there is any judgement capacity in the RFU tier above Still Boring might they be expected to be working behind the scenes to achieve that NOW. Such a public declaration of support and an extra top brain could be the catalyst required. We badly need a convincing win in the next two matches but is anybody optimistic about it happening with the current set-up?

[Puja]

We badly need a convincing win in the next two matches but is anybody optimistic about it happening with the current set-up?

Yes, but I am always a credulous fool when it comes to the belief that the corner is right there for the imminent turning, and have been for decades, ever since Dan Luger proved me right that one time in November 2000. No amount of false dawns since then have yet been able to knock the hope out of me.

England by 5 at the weekend and the upward climb starts here!

Puja

[Oakboy]

We badly need a convincing win in the next two matches but is anybody optimistic about it happening with the current set-up?

Yes, but I am always a credulous fool when it comes to the belief that the corner is right there for the imminent turning, and have been for decades, ever since Dan Luger proved me right that one time in November 2000. No amount of false dawns since then have yet been able to knock the hope out of me.

England by 5 at the weekend and the upward climb starts here!

Puja

By optimistic, I was thinking reasoned judgement rather than hope. I hope England will win every game.

[Puja]

{Mod} I am going to make an executive decision and say that, if we want to continue this discussion, let's start a new thread and keep it contained there. We all know the arguments inside and out, so if you want to rehash it, let's keep it contained to it's own area so that those who don't want to engage can ignore it as necessary.

[Puja]

We badly need a convincing win in the next two matches but is anybody optimistic about it happening with the current set-up?

Yes, but I am always a credulous fool when it comes to the belief that the corner is right there for the imminent turning, and have been for decades, ever since Dan Luger proved me right that one time in November 2000. No amount of false dawns since then have yet been able to knock the hope out of me.

England by 5 at the weekend and the upward climb starts here!

Puja

By optimistic, I was thinking reasoned judgement rather than hope. I hope England will win every game.

I was talking about reasoned judgement optimism, although I reserve the right to still consider myself foolish later. France are very far from insuperable and we were very close to everything coming together against Ireland. At home, I think a win is very possible. As for Scotland, they're very much not as good as their rep suggests, and losing Tuipulotu and Cummings to injury makes a massive difference with their thin depth.

Entirely possible to get two wins. I am very optimistic of one.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Yes, but I am always a credulous fool when it comes to the belief that the corner is right there for the imminent turning, and have been for decades, ever since Dan Luger proved me right that one time in November 2000. No amount of false dawns since then have yet been able to knock the hope out of me.

England by 5 at the weekend and the upward climb starts here!

Puja

By optimistic, I was thinking reasoned judgement rather than hope. I hope England will win every game.

I was talking about reasoned judgement optimism, although I reserve the right to still consider myself foolish later. France are very far from insuperable and we were very close to everything coming together against Ireland. At home, I think a win is very possible. As for Scotland, they're very much not as good as their rep suggests, and losing Tuipulotu and Cummings to injury makes a massive difference with their thin depth.

Entirely possible to get two wins. I am very optimistic of one.

Puja

I just HOPE you are right.

[Spiffy]

Agree with all of that. The thing that is really annoying me is that same pattern is being repeated and, quelle surprise, we end up with the same result. If I’m meeting you halfway, the centres going well is a step in the right direction and went from a negative to a plus, and the defence was very good considering it’s two weeks old albeit clearly needs tweaking. I’m rooting for El-Abd for a number of reasons.

Good luck to El-Abd. But Slab Beak is the big boss and that's where the buck stops. He does seem pretty limited in both his record of lack of success and his overall vision and leadership in running an international team. He probably should go.

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.