Scotland v England Sat 24 Feb 4.45pm

[Oakboy]

This is a young side, there will always be bumps on the road to development……….. jeez, give the man a break.

Young side . . . . Cole, Marler, George, Itoje, Care, Ford, Slade, Daly, Spencer . . .

[Banquo]

This is a young side, there will always be bumps on the road to development……….. jeez, give the man a break.

absolute tosh

[Banquo]

This is a young side, there will always be bumps on the road to development……….. jeez, give the man a break.

Young side . . . . Cole, Marler, George, Itoje, Care, Ford, Slade, Daly, Spencer . . .

p/d's tongue is all the way thru his cheek

[Banquo]

https://x.com/bbcsport/status/176183763 ... IjUZPGY9HQ

Insert vomit emoji here.

??

[Mellsblue]

https://x.com/bbcsport/status/176183763 ... IjUZPGY9HQ

Insert vomit emoji here.

??

I was sick in my mouth watching how truly crap we are.

[FKAS]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

[Cameo]

This seemed telling to me, and fits with what I see as a rigidness amd lack of flexibility:

https://x.com/brettruganalyst/status/17 ... 81884?s=20

You have some weird gaps in your player pool (Care and Cole - really?) but overall it is a competent if not inspiring bunch. Scotland would be happy to have any of them (not necesarrily all as starters but there is no one in the England squad who wouldn't get a lot of caps for Scotland - we started the 6N with a fullback who had started one pro game there and then replaced him with one who had about 5 pro starts all in). It might not be the squad to take you where you want to go, but it can be far better than it is. It has to be coaching. Stop building for some far off future (other than by filtering in young players). Stop overcomplicating it. Get competent coaches in to deal with each aspect and see how good a team you can be now.

Or, ideally, don't and continue as you have been.

[Banquo]

Insert vomit emoji here.

??

I was sick in my mouth watching how truly crap we are.

yurp

[Banquo]

This seemed telling to me, and fits with what I see as a rigidness amd lack of flexibility:

https://x.com/brettruganalyst/status/17 ... 81884?s=20

You have some weird gaps in your player pool (Care and Cole - really?) but overall it is a competent if not inspiring bunch. Scotland would be happy to have any of them (not necesarrily all as starters but there is no one in the England squad who wouldn't get a lot of caps for Scotland - we started the 6N with a fullback who had started one pro game there and then replaced him with one who had about 5 pro starts all in). It might not be the squad to take you where you want to go, but it can be far better than it is. It has to be coaching. Stop building for some far off future (other than by filtering in young players). Stop overcomplicating it. Get competent coaches in to deal with each aspect and see how good a team you can be now.

Or, ideally, don't and continue as you have been.

agreed....or, just play rugby, rather than looking around the next corner....

[Mikey Brown]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

[Banquo]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

when theory meets reality

[Spiffy]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

The players are not allowed to Mikey. Smashed Beak has told them what to do so they keep doing it, even when pointless and stupid. You can see from the England approach that creativity and decision making are VERBOTEN. Much the same as under Eddie Jones.

[FKAS]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

The players are not allowed to Mikey. Smashed Beak has told them what to do so they keep doing it, even when pointless and stupid. You can see from the England approach that creativity and decision making are VERBOTEN. Much the same as under Eddie Jones.

Or they don't trust each other. Easier to stay in system if the cohesion is lacking as innovation generally requires you to trust the players around you to see and react to what you're doing.

[FKAS]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

It certainly helps but the importance is to get wide. If you are playing to close to the line and the tackle is made in the middle of the pitch then the move isn't happening.

[Oakboy]

Maybe we should just sack all the current coaches, allow a player committee to select the team and borrow ex-Barbarian coaches for single matches to lead one familiarity session on the day before a game. It could work, especially if only sub-40-cap players were eligible.

[Banquo]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

It certainly helps but the importance is to get wide. If you are playing to close to the line and the tackle is made in the middle of the pitch then the move isn't happening.

Seems to be an awful lot of effort and hands to go through and support to get wide and secure the ball in order to set up a 50/50 kick across the park tbh.

[Mellsblue]

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

It certainly helps but the importance is to get wide. If you are playing to close to the line and the tackle is made in the middle of the pitch then the move isn't happening.

Seems to be an awful lot of effort and hands to go through and support to get wide and secure the ball in order to set up a 50/50 kick across the park tbh.

Yep. This is like arguing over the best way to get to Skegness.

[Banquo]

Most of the negativity seems to come from the last 20 minutes; post all the mistakes you highlight, we needed 3 scores. Showed zero urgency, in fact the opposite, wasted time, opportunities and just showed zero intelligence, Spencer being the prime culprit and IFW being the opposite mindset. IMO some of the 'systems' look like being over-thought/clever 'because we are great analysts'. I accept this takes time- but bleating on about being a young side (bs) and the ridiculous 'our 10/12/13 have never played together comment' really doesn't sit well.

Absolutely.
And the last 20 minutes always skew the perspective of the match as a whole - especially watching live (which I couldn't). But that doesn't mean that there are no positives to pick either, they were just mostly (entirely?) earlier in the game, and more system than individual, which is always harder (for me) to spot, especially when all emotional.
I've no idea on the bleating, as I tend not to listen to what anyone says to the press, as it's usually BS and nothing like what they say to each other.

I saw SB spout that BS live- its part of his job to be sensible and credible.
The lack of intelligence in game management is what concerns me- system adherence is trumping scanning the field, 'feeling the moment', taking advantage of an opportunity- when something unexpected happens, it all goes to sh+t. Guess what....that's going to happen a lot, its a game.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

I feel like the old side to side cross kickery do is surely more effective if you have the defence going backwards as well though. Not committing any defenders, or even coming close to it, isn’t going to make that move more effective is it?

I don’t have a massive issue with the play, but in a more general sense it feels like we often don’t seem to react to what the opposition are doing.

Absolutely. You have to create the space in the first place, otherwise it is just a 50/50 contested kick at best. Whether you get them going backwards, or pull them in tight by attacking inside is somewhat immaterial, but you've got to create the opportunity ideally.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Geez the analysis there is crap. The general points are good but that really feels like an analyst explained it to him and he regurgitated it badly.

Sure the two phase move isn't a great one 34 seconds into the game it should be immediately obvious why they are stood deep if they are pulling the Scottish defence over to try and crossfield to Freeman hopefully up against Scotland's slower defenders still in place after the lineout. They are going deep because the importance is the width not necessarily breaking the gain line (obviously you don't want to lose ground). If contact is taken in the middle of the pitch the defence won't be stretched enough to give him a chance against an isolated defender. It's not a bad ploy but Freeman doesn't get the angle right and Scotland bat it down and escape. Doesn't really show much confidence in the attack going to a trick play straight away.

The second move breaks down because Care fecks up the pass on the second phase carry passing behind Genge to the point he has to stop and turn back. Otherwise Genge charges into contact with two support runners. There's plenty of evidence later in the game of one off runners though and that killed our momentum more.

The pedestrian service and the lack of urgency in the backline is a concern though. With that little chat you'd either assume they aren't clicking or they're all completely in sync and the number of dropped passes suggests it's the former and not the later. Feels like we are missing a general to direct the team or that the halfbacks don't feel they can.

Going wide with no real guile or momentum from depth is a recipe for turnover. If you secure the ball, you're making the gainline at best meaning you've no real momentum into phase 2. t seems kind of pointless. It does little to nothing in terms of defensive manipulation, nor future phase planning.

[Oakboy]

Most of the negativity seems to come from the last 20 minutes; post all the mistakes you highlight, we needed 3 scores. Showed zero urgency, in fact the opposite, wasted time, opportunities and just showed zero intelligence, Spencer being the prime culprit and IFW being the opposite mindset. IMO some of the 'systems' look like being over-thought/clever 'because we are great analysts'. I accept this takes time- but bleating on about being a young side (bs) and the ridiculous 'our 10/12/13 have never played together comment' really doesn't sit well.

Absolutely.
And the last 20 minutes always skew the perspective of the match as a whole - especially watching live (which I couldn't). But that doesn't mean that there are no positives to pick either, they were just mostly (entirely?) earlier in the game, and more system than individual, which is always harder (for me) to spot, especially when all emotional.
I've no idea on the bleating, as I tend not to listen to what anyone says to the press, as it's usually BS and nothing like what they say to each other.

I saw SB spout that BS live- its part of his job to be sensible and credible.
The lack of intelligence in game management is what concerns me- system adherence is trumping scanning the field, 'feeling the moment', taking advantage of an opportunity- when something unexpected happens, it all goes to sh+t. Guess what....that's going to happen a lot, its a game.

Perhaps, Mike Davis DID have a point in spending time practising recovery from cock-ups!

[Mellsblue]

Most of the negativity seems to come from the last 20 minutes; post all the mistakes you highlight, we needed 3 scores. Showed zero urgency, in fact the opposite, wasted time, opportunities and just showed zero intelligence, Spencer being the prime culprit and IFW being the opposite mindset. IMO some of the 'systems' look like being over-thought/clever 'because we are great analysts'. I accept this takes time- but bleating on about being a young side (bs) and the ridiculous 'our 10/12/13 have never played together comment' really doesn't sit well.

Absolutely.
And the last 20 minutes always skew the perspective of the match as a whole - especially watching live (which I couldn't). But that doesn't mean that there are no positives to pick either, they were just mostly (entirely?) earlier in the game, and more system than individual, which is always harder (for me) to spot, especially when all emotional.
I've no idea on the bleating, as I tend not to listen to what anyone says to the press, as it's usually BS and nothing like what they say to each other.

I saw SB spout that BS live- its part of his job to be sensible and credible.
The lack of intelligence in game management is what concerns me- system adherence is trumping scanning the field, 'feeling the moment', taking advantage of an opportunity- when something unexpected happens, it all goes to sh+t. Guess what....that's going to happen a lot, its a game.

It was the same when he was capt. albeit he no longer has a bleeding nose when taking us for fools.

[Stom]

Most of the negativity seems to come from the last 20 minutes; post all the mistakes you highlight, we needed 3 scores. Showed zero urgency, in fact the opposite, wasted time, opportunities and just showed zero intelligence, Spencer being the prime culprit and IFW being the opposite mindset. IMO some of the 'systems' look like being over-thought/clever 'because we are great analysts'. I accept this takes time- but bleating on about being a young side (bs) and the ridiculous 'our 10/12/13 have never played together comment' really doesn't sit well.

Absolutely.
And the last 20 minutes always skew the perspective of the match as a whole - especially watching live (which I couldn't). But that doesn't mean that there are no positives to pick either, they were just mostly (entirely?) earlier in the game, and more system than individual, which is always harder (for me) to spot, especially when all emotional.
I've no idea on the bleating, as I tend not to listen to what anyone says to the press, as it's usually BS and nothing like what they say to each other.

I saw SB spout that BS live- its part of his job to be sensible and credible.
The lack of intelligence in game management is what concerns me- system adherence is trumping scanning the field, 'feeling the moment', taking advantage of an opportunity- when something unexpected happens, it all goes to sh+t. Guess what....that's going to happen a lot, its a game.

That's the entire thing, though.

It doesn't matter how good your systems are if it all goes wrong as soon as the opposition refuse to play ball...

I think SB has got this all wrong. I think we need to ditch the Wig and embrace our baldness.

[Banquo]

Absolutely.
And the last 20 minutes always skew the perspective of the match as a whole - especially watching live (which I couldn't). But that doesn't mean that there are no positives to pick either, they were just mostly (entirely?) earlier in the game, and more system than individual, which is always harder (for me) to spot, especially when all emotional.
I've no idea on the bleating, as I tend not to listen to what anyone says to the press, as it's usually BS and nothing like what they say to each other.

I saw SB spout that BS live- its part of his job to be sensible and credible.
The lack of intelligence in game management is what concerns me- system adherence is trumping scanning the field, 'feeling the moment', taking advantage of an opportunity- when something unexpected happens, it all goes to sh+t. Guess what....that's going to happen a lot, its a game.

Perhaps, Mike Davis DID have a point in spending time practising recovery from cock-ups!

He definitely did, tho it was at a more basic level. Most of it is simply reaction time.

[Mikey Brown]

Absolutely.
And the last 20 minutes always skew the perspective of the match as a whole - especially watching live (which I couldn't). But that doesn't mean that there are no positives to pick either, they were just mostly (entirely?) earlier in the game, and more system than individual, which is always harder (for me) to spot, especially when all emotional.
I've no idea on the bleating, as I tend not to listen to what anyone says to the press, as it's usually BS and nothing like what they say to each other.

I saw SB spout that BS live- its part of his job to be sensible and credible.
The lack of intelligence in game management is what concerns me- system adherence is trumping scanning the field, 'feeling the moment', taking advantage of an opportunity- when something unexpected happens, it all goes to sh+t. Guess what....that's going to happen a lot, its a game.

That's the entire thing, though.

It doesn't matter how good your systems are if it all goes wrong as soon as the opposition refuse to play ball...

I think SB has got this all wrong. I think we need to ditch the Wig and embrace our baldness.

I like your thinking. Skivington as attack coach.