RugbyRebels

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:03 am Good luck to El-Abd. But Slab Beak is the big boss and that's where the buck stops. He does seem pretty limited in both his record of lack of success and his overall vision and leadership in running an international team. He probably should go.

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:03 am Good luck to El-Abd. But Slab Beak is the big boss and that's where the buck stops. He does seem pretty limited in both his record of lack of success and his overall vision and leadership in running an international team. He probably should go.

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:48 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

Sign me up for Pat Lam!

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:50 pm
I'd be amazed if he didn't. Man is an obsessive workaholic.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:03 am Good luck to El-Abd. But Slab Beak is the big boss and that's where the buck stops. He does seem pretty limited in both his record of lack of success and his overall vision and leadership in running an international team. He probably should go.

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:50 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

I'd be amazed if he didn't. Man is an obsessive workaholic.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:20 pm"Anybody but" is a dangerous idea. We don't even need to look at hypotheticals, we can just cast our eye to Wales and to Australia for what happened when they thought they could get an upgrade on entrenched coaches who were trying to build something. Not every abrupt coaching change is a Rassie Erasmus and I think it's dangerous to lean into the caricature that Shoddy Branding is an incompetent buffoon with no merits whatsoever. He was a highly rated and respected coach with a history of success before England and it's far more likely that the England job is actually really difficult than it is that he's abruptly become an imbecile upon taking the job.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:20 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

"Anybody but" is a dangerous idea. We don't even need to look at hypotheticals, we can just cast our eye to Wales and to Australia for what happened when they thought they could get an upgrade on entrenched coaches who were trying to build something. Not every abrupt coaching change is a Rassie Erasmus and I think it's dangerous to lean into the caricature that Shoddy Branding is an incompetent buffoon with no merits whatsoever. He was a highly rated and respected coach with a history of success before England and it's far more likely that the England job is actually really difficult than it is that he's abruptly become an imbecile upon taking the job.

That's not to say that he is capable of doing the job or that we *can't* do better, but I'd be loath to sack him without having someone very good ready and waiting - frankly the only candidate I'd be willing to endure further turmoil for right now would be Schmidt. Anyone else would be a gamble and, barring something stupid like us losing to Italy, I'd rather gamble that Borthwick's long game leads to something, rather than gamble that Pat Lam's all-out-attacking approach would a) translate to the higher level, b) translate to the international environment with less time with players, and c) result in a Bristol in 2021 levels of success rather than 2022 and 2023 levels of just about avoiding finishing bottom. Quite apart from anything else, he has the sole coaching career highlight of finishing top in 2021 and then failing in the first knockout game to win zero trophies, which doesn't sound great compared to our incumbent's "One Full Season = One Premiership Trophy" record.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:20 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

"Anybody but" is a dangerous idea. We don't even need to look at hypotheticals, we can just cast our eye to Wales and to Australia for what happened when they thought they could get an upgrade on entrenched coaches who were trying to build something. Not every abrupt coaching change is a Rassie Erasmus and I think it's dangerous to lean into the caricature that Shoddy Branding is an incompetent buffoon with no merits whatsoever. He was a highly rated and respected coach with a history of success before England and it's far more likely that the England job is actually really difficult than it is that he's abruptly become an imbecile upon taking the job.

That's not to say that he is capable of doing the job or that we *can't* do better, but I'd be loath to sack him without having someone very good ready and waiting - frankly the only candidate I'd be willing to endure further turmoil for right now would be Schmidt. Anyone else would be a gamble and, barring something stupid like us losing to Italy, I'd rather gamble that Borthwick's long game leads to something, rather than gamble that Pat Lam's all-out-attacking approach would a) translate to the higher level, b) translate to the international environment with less time with players, and c) result in a Bristol in 2021 levels of success rather than 2022 and 2023 levels of just about avoiding finishing bottom. Quite apart from anything else, he has the sole coaching career highlight of finishing top in 2021 and then failing in the first knockout game to win zero trophies, which doesn't sound great compared to our incumbent's "One Full Season = One Premiership Trophy" record.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:27 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:20 pm"Anybody but" is a dangerous idea. We don't even need to look at hypotheticals, we can just cast our eye to Wales and to Australia for what happened when they thought they could get an upgrade on entrenched coaches who were trying to build something. Not every abrupt coaching change is a Rassie Erasmus and I think it's dangerous to lean into the caricature that Shoddy Branding is an incompetent buffoon with no merits whatsoever. He was a highly rated and respected coach with a history of success before England and it's far more likely that the England job is actually really difficult than it is that he's abruptly become an imbecile upon taking the job.

Don't even need to go that far afield - look at what happened when we "anything but"d Eddie Jones out the door.

Difference now being a that a new guy would have a chance to build for a RWC, rather than sink or swim based on someone else's team. If the decision has to be made (either way) it needs to be made for this summer.

FTR: I don't mind "anything but" as a rationale - so long as the timing is right - and preferably, so long as you don't hamstring your selection criteria by weird things like "must be English".
As for who right now? Edwards or O'Gara would probably be first choices. Beyond that, I'm not going to claim enough familiarity with all the coaches out there, but RFU ought to be keeping tabs on who's who anyway

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:47 pmPresumably, some working group at the RFU has investigated why so many leave??

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:47 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:27 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:20 pm"Anybody but" is a dangerous idea. We don't even need to look at hypotheticals, we can just cast our eye to Wales and to Australia for what happened when they thought they could get an upgrade on entrenched coaches who were trying to build something. Not every abrupt coaching change is a Rassie Erasmus and I think it's dangerous to lean into the caricature that Shoddy Branding is an incompetent buffoon with no merits whatsoever. He was a highly rated and respected coach with a history of success before England and it's far more likely that the England job is actually really difficult than it is that he's abruptly become an imbecile upon taking the job.

Don't even need to go that far afield - look at what happened when we "anything but"d Eddie Jones out the door.

Difference now being a that a new guy would have a chance to build for a RWC, rather than sink or swim based on someone else's team. If the decision has to be made (either way) it needs to be made for this summer.

FTR: I don't mind "anything but" as a rationale - so long as the timing is right - and preferably, so long as you don't hamstring your selection criteria by weird things like "must be English".
As for who right now? Edwards or O'Gara would probably be first choices. Beyond that, I'm not going to claim enough familiarity with all the coaches out there, but RFU ought to be keeping tabs on who's who anyway

Presumably, some working group at the RFU has investigated why so many leave??

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:47 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:27 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:20 pm"Anybody but" is a dangerous idea. We don't even need to look at hypotheticals, we can just cast our eye to Wales and to Australia for what happened when they thought they could get an upgrade on entrenched coaches who were trying to build something. Not every abrupt coaching change is a Rassie Erasmus and I think it's dangerous to lean into the caricature that Shoddy Branding is an incompetent buffoon with no merits whatsoever. He was a highly rated and respected coach with a history of success before England and it's far more likely that the England job is actually really difficult than it is that he's abruptly become an imbecile upon taking the job.

Don't even need to go that far afield - look at what happened when we "anything but"d Eddie Jones out the door.

Difference now being a that a new guy would have a chance to build for a RWC, rather than sink or swim based on someone else's team. If the decision has to be made (either way) it needs to be made for this summer.

FTR: I don't mind "anything but" as a rationale - so long as the timing is right - and preferably, so long as you don't hamstring your selection criteria by weird things like "must be English".
As for who right now? Edwards or O'Gara would probably be first choices. Beyond that, I'm not going to claim enough familiarity with all the coaches out there, but RFU ought to be keeping tabs on who's who anyway

One common factor with Jones and Borthwick is the turnover in assistant coaches.

Dowson and Vesty might not be right but if they came together they would know they could work with each other. I'm not suggesting them, merely saying that a group of coaches needs appointing simultaneously AFTER common ground has been established.

Presumably, some working group at the RFU has investigated why so many leave??

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:57 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:47 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:27 pm

Don't even need to go that far afield - look at what happened when we "anything but"d Eddie Jones out the door.

Difference now being a that a new guy would have a chance to build for a RWC, rather than sink or swim based on someone else's team. If the decision has to be made (either way) it needs to be made for this summer.

FTR: I don't mind "anything but" as a rationale - so long as the timing is right - and preferably, so long as you don't hamstring your selection criteria by weird things like "must be English".
As for who right now? Edwards or O'Gara would probably be first choices. Beyond that, I'm not going to claim enough familiarity with all the coaches out there, but RFU ought to be keeping tabs on who's who anyway

One common factor with Jones and Borthwick is the turnover in assistant coaches.

Dowson and Vesty might not be right but if they came together they would know they could work with each other. I'm not suggesting them, merely saying that a group of coaches needs appointing simultaneously AFTER common ground has been established.

Presumably, some working group at the RFU has investigated why so many leave??

Like hiring Borthwick, Sinfield, and Walthers together, you mean?

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:50 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:30 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:31 am

Which leads to the old age question: who do you replace him with?

You could almost answer that question with "anybody but". Like every other international team, England has a bevy of sub-coaches for this and that, so I doubt that SB has much of a day to day hands on role. As top dog, his role is to be more visionary, develop a good game plan that gets results, select the right players to do it, and overall, to lead and inspire the troops with a knowledge, mindset and personality that they respect and respond to. Not sure that is the case in the current set up.
To be fair, I can't think of a specific replacement off the top of my head, as I am not that close to things.
Since I am a sucker for fast, attack-orientated, running rugby, good passing skills, plenty of tries etc... perhaps someone in the Pat Lam mould. Though that will probably go down here like a lead balloon.

I'd be amazed if he didn't. Man is an obsessive workaholic.

paddy no 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:37 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:27 pm

paddy no 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:26 pm

Dropped

I know he was getting on but his doggedness would have come in handy for Ireland

It's time to move on, and if we lose we shouldn't revert back