England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45

[FKAS]

Agreed. Stuart is underrated and is quietly becoming a deserving and reliable first choice.

I thought Stuart put the debate to bed over last summer to be honest. Has come on really well in the last couple of years, working with van Graan and du Toit at Bath seems to have brought out the best of him. Just reliably solid every game.

If Heyes can offer the same, which he did yesterday but need to show he can every game, then we'll be in a good place with the exciting young talent coming through.

[Charlatan]

Hello everyone, loooong time lurker, first time poster. Thought I'd finally get up the nerve to post something!

My initial thoughts were:

That game was bonkers.
A win! An actual win!
I have no idea what was up with France. Thought they looked nervy coming out for the anthems. Would love to say that was all down to England pressure but doesn't feel the whole story.
Tom Curry was my PoM.
Backrow balance and performance much better and continued to work with B Curry sub.
I also thought Martin had another average game and would start Chessum.
Freeman much improved - a beneficary of the greater number of Saints in the starting line up?
Marcus had a good game, the FB experiment paid off, it was also him that dived on the loose ball at the death I'm pretty sure. Obviously a shame about the missed kicks.
Great showing for Fin Smith as well.
I'd say it's a bonus to have these two talented fly halves, not that England seem to be great at managing this situation generally - look at the contrast to how Ireland are managing Predergast and Crowley. Plus Ford as well.
Good to see Lawrence put in another purposeful performance. I still remain unconvinced about Slade.
I was doubtful about George on the bench but fair play, he did well.
Bench as a whole was managed better and had more impact - and thankfully Mitchell was left on.
Questionmarks over Genge?


Overall: Something to build from and finally some positivity to take into the fallow week but not going to get too carried away, got to back it up now and take into account how error-strewn France were.

[p/d]

Stephen Jones ratings lol:



TOM CURRY 8/10 Becoming one of the best back-row forwards in the Six Nations, superb until replaced

Was he

Yeah, I thought the same.

Can’t recall seeing CCS flowing locks

[Mikey Brown]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

[Oakboy]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

[Stom]

Hello everyone, loooong time lurker, first time poster. Thought I'd finally get up the nerve to post something!

My initial thoughts were:

That game was bonkers.
A win! An actual win!
I have no idea what was up with France. Thought they looked nervy coming out for the anthems. Would love to say that was all down to England pressure but doesn't feel the whole story.
Tom Curry was my PoM.
Backrow balance and performance much better and continued to work with B Curry sub.
I also thought Martin had another average game and would start Chessum.
Freeman much improved - a beneficary of the greater number of Saints in the starting line up?
Marcus had a good game, the FB experiment paid off, it was also him that dived on the loose ball at the death I'm pretty sure. Obviously a shame about the missed kicks.
Great showing for Fin Smith as well.
I'd say it's a bonus to have these two talented fly halves, not that England seem to be great at managing this situation generally - look at the contrast to how Ireland are managing Predergast and Crowley. Plus Ford as well.
Good to see Lawrence put in another purposeful performance. I still remain unconvinced about Slade.
I was doubtful about George on the bench but fair play, he did well.
Bench as a whole was managed better and had more impact - and thankfully Mitchell was left on.
Questionmarks over Genge?


Overall: Something to build from and finally some positivity to take into the fallow week but not going to get too carried away, got to back it up now and take into account how error-strewn France were.

Good first post.

Can agree with that.

[Stom]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

I think the impact of Willis actually helps the cause to revert back to 5:3. He was very good and allowed us to pick a curry on the bench and not be short.

I think most of us will agree on the 23, with only the usual suspects being unsure about dropping LCD completely and having Dan on the bench.

I don’t get LCD. Years ago, when he was the bright young thing, he added carrying and energy to counteract iffy basics. Now he doesn’t have that impact and his basics still struggle under pressure.

At least Dan has impact.

[Mikey Brown]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

No realistic alternatives really at centre right now it feels. Maybe give Dingwall the Italy game, but I’d just wait until the summer to think about the centres much more. As long as Lawrence stops kicking it.

It’s promising that Borthwick actually stuck with his gut on whether certain subs needed to be used, or were a risk in such a tight game. That often seems to be the way once you get to knockout rugby, and this had a similar feel in how tight it was (if not the manner the teams were playing).

Feels harsh on Randall to be dropped now, but either he views this as a horses for courses thing and no big deal, or it’s made him realise he doesn’t actually trust Randall.

CCS seems to have been diminished to the same inconsistent, penalty magnet he was 2/3 years ago, as if all these massive moments for England in the last season just didn’t happen. I agree he’s got a lot to work on, but he’s 21, still a real weapon and I hope he is managed well.

I was trying to think who I’d actually want on the bench in a 5:3 but I’m note sure there’s another back that needs including ahead of a CCS/Burry combo in a 6:2. Isn’t it amazing that having a balanced starting backrow actually leaves you with room to either up the pace or up the ballast?

[p/d]

Hello everyone, loooong time lurker, first time poster. Thought I'd finally get up the nerve to post something!

My initial thoughts were:

That game was bonkers.
A win! An actual win!
I have no idea what was up with France. Thought they looked nervy coming out for the anthems. Would love to say that was all down to England pressure but doesn't feel the whole story.
Tom Curry was my PoM.
Backrow balance and performance much better and continued to work with B Curry sub.
I also thought Martin had another average game and would start Chessum.
Freeman much improved - a beneficary of the greater number of Saints in the starting line up?
Marcus had a good game, the FB experiment paid off, it was also him that dived on the loose ball at the death I'm pretty sure. Obviously a shame about the missed kicks.
Great showing for Fin Smith as well.
I'd say it's a bonus to have these two talented fly halves, not that England seem to be great at managing this situation generally - look at the contrast to how Ireland are managing Predergast and Crowley. Plus Ford as well.
Good to see Lawrence put in another purposeful performance. I still remain unconvinced about Slade.
I was doubtful about George on the bench but fair play, he did well.
Bench as a whole was managed better and had more impact - and thankfully Mitchell was left on.
Questionmarks over Genge?


Overall: Something to build from and finally some positivity to take into the fallow week but not going to get too carried away, got to back it up now and take into account how error-strewn France were.

Good first post.

Can agree with that.

Indeed, though I agree with most of it.

[Oakboy]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

No realistic alternatives really at centre right now it feels. Maybe give Dingwall the Italy game, but I’d just wait until the summer to think about the centres much more. As long as Lawrence stops kicking it.

It’s promising that Borthwick actually stuck with his gut on whether certain subs needed to be used, or were a risk in such a tight game. That often seems to be the way once you get to knockout rugby, and this had a similar feel in how tight it was (if not the manner the teams were playing).

Feels harsh on Randall to be dropped now, but either he views this as a horses for courses thing and no big deal, or it’s made him realise he doesn’t actually trust Randall.

CCS seems to have been diminished to the same inconsistent, penalty magnet he was 2/3 years ago, as if all these massive moments for England in the last season just didn’t happen. I agree he’s got a lot to work on, but he’s 21, still a real weapon and I hope he is managed well.

I was trying to think who I’d actually want on the bench in a 5:3 but I’m note sure there’s another back that needs including ahead of a CCS/Burry combo in a 6:2. Isn’t it amazing that having a balanced starting backrow actually leaves you with room to either up the pace or up the ballast?

As so often mentioned, how far on would the team be if SB had listened to us and done it in the AIs!!!!!!!!!

[Banquo]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

No realistic alternatives really at centre right now it feels. Maybe give Dingwall the Italy game, but I’d just wait until the summer to think about the centres much more. As long as Lawrence stops kicking it.

It’s promising that Borthwick actually stuck with his gut on whether certain subs needed to be used, or were a risk in such a tight game. That often seems to be the way once you get to knockout rugby, and this had a similar feel in how tight it was (if not the manner the teams were playing).

Feels harsh on Randall to be dropped now, but either he views this as a horses for courses thing and no big deal, or it’s made him realise he doesn’t actually trust Randall.

CCS seems to have been diminished to the same inconsistent, penalty magnet he was 2/3 years ago, as if all these massive moments for England in the last season just didn’t happen. I agree he’s got a lot to work on, but he’s 21, still a real weapon and I hope he is managed well.

I was trying to think who I’d actually want on the bench in a 5:3 but I’m note sure there’s another back that needs including ahead of a CCS/Burry combo in a 6:2. Isn’t it amazing that having a balanced starting backrow actually leaves you with room to either up the pace or up the ballast?

Agreed on CCS, to me he has a lot to offer,

[FKAS]

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

No realistic alternatives really at centre right now it feels. Maybe give Dingwall the Italy game, but I’d just wait until the summer to think about the centres much more. As long as Lawrence stops kicking it.

It’s promising that Borthwick actually stuck with his gut on whether certain subs needed to be used, or were a risk in such a tight game. That often seems to be the way once you get to knockout rugby, and this had a similar feel in how tight it was (if not the manner the teams were playing).

Feels harsh on Randall to be dropped now, but either he views this as a horses for courses thing and no big deal, or it’s made him realise he doesn’t actually trust Randall.

CCS seems to have been diminished to the same inconsistent, penalty magnet he was 2/3 years ago, as if all these massive moments for England in the last season just didn’t happen. I agree he’s got a lot to work on, but he’s 21, still a real weapon and I hope he is managed well.

I was trying to think who I’d actually want on the bench in a 5:3 but I’m note sure there’s another back that needs including ahead of a CCS/Burry combo in a 6:2. Isn’t it amazing that having a balanced starting backrow actually leaves you with room to either up the pace or up the ballast?

As so often mentioned, how far on would the team be if SB had listened to us and done it in the AIs!!!!!!!!!

I think the changes to the squad for the 6N was a good indication that Borthwick knew he went way to safe with selection in the Autumn. Turned out safe left him with little impact off the bench.

In terms of bench I think it'll depend on strategy. If we go for Steward at 15 it'll be a 5:3 bench as we'll want Marcus on there plus another back. If we keep Marcus at 15 I can see another 6:2 split with Daly retained as the utility back cover.

Scotland like to play at a higher tempo and a bit wider but have a far less physical pack then France and Ireland so we might be thinking of more backline impact. Then again we could just be looking to try and do a number on them, particularly at set piece time and therefore load the bench up, potential of Chessum to 6 if he or Martin is going to be fit enough to do the full 80 (them both being back from injury one game before the 6N). I'm expecting Borthwick to tinker again, just not sure what.

[FKAS]

I also like Jones’ assertion that Slade and Lawrence loved playing outside Smith, with the pack being on top and virtually all 8s, but somehow ‘the ball didn’t go their way’ / ‘didn’t get much chance to attack’.

Slade looked functional, but I’m curious if Fin Smith being at 10 might really expose him as being a bit redundant? His left boot is useful, he is in theory a defensive leader and in theory a sharp distributor, but surely we need to see more positive contributions with the ball or in the contact area.

I’d stick with the same set of backs because it’s very unclear from that game what was causing what, but I feel like I’m already tired of the Smith/Smith “discourse”.

I don’t think CCS made it on. It will be interesting if Chessum starts next week if Borthwick will still view the 6:2 as crucial.

We all know Slade is nearing the end of his international stint. It's simple: find a better 12 or leave him in. I've not been a fan of Lawrence but he has had two good 6N games. Fair enough. Leave him at 13 - for now. That might be unfortunate for other OC candidates but other than going 'all-Saints' with Dingwall/Freeman, what is a realistic alternative for the next three matches?

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

I think the impact of Willis actually helps the cause to revert back to 5:3. He was very good and allowed us to pick a curry on the bench and not be short.

I think most of us will agree on the 23, with only the usual suspects being unsure about dropping LCD completely and having Dan on the bench.

I don’t get LCD. Years ago, when he was the bright young thing, he added carrying and energy to counteract iffy basics. Now he doesn’t have that impact and his basics still struggle under pressure.

At least Dan has impact.

I thought George off the bench had a good impact for us. A fresh and vocal leader who could come on and help smooth out the issues at the lineout. Exactly what England needed.

I'm not sure about LCD either, in theory he's a great option to have but in reality he's hit and miss. Could we start Dan and then retain the experience of George on the bench maybe.

[Mr Mwenda]

Hello everyone, loooong time lurker, first time poster. Thought I'd finally get up the nerve to post something!

My initial thoughts were:

That game was bonkers.
A win! An actual win!
I have no idea what was up with France. Thought they looked nervy coming out for the anthems. Would love to say that was all down to England pressure but doesn't feel the whole story.
Tom Curry was my PoM.
Backrow balance and performance much better and continued to work with B Curry sub.
I also thought Martin had another average game and would start Chessum.
Freeman much improved - a beneficary of the greater number of Saints in the starting line up?
Marcus had a good game, the FB experiment paid off, it was also him that dived on the loose ball at the death I'm pretty sure. Obviously a shame about the missed kicks.
Great showing for Fin Smith as well.
I'd say it's a bonus to have these two talented fly halves, not that England seem to be great at managing this situation generally - look at the contrast to how Ireland are managing Predergast and Crowley. Plus Ford as well.
Good to see Lawrence put in another purposeful performance. I still remain unconvinced about Slade.
I was doubtful about George on the bench but fair play, he did well.
Bench as a whole was managed better and had more impact - and thankfully Mitchell was left on.
Questionmarks over Genge?


Overall: Something to build from and finally some positivity to take into the fallow week but not going to get too carried away, got to back it up now and take into account how error-strewn France were.

Welcome! I feel I should disagree because this is the internet but don't really have any reason.

[Which Tyler]

I agree with others that SB managed the bench well on the day. It was a relief to see him not go 'pre-conceived'. Of course, CCS and Randall having been superfluous leaves some likelihood of neither being in the next 23 and of a 5:3.

Please be a 5:3.
A] it's a far safer bench distribution
B] it gives the option of someone like Atkinson, Dingwall or Ojomoh to come in off the bench - if Fin is keeping the starting shirt, then we need to leave him a settled pair outside, but I'd still like those two (I don't think I've missed anyone obvious) to get a few minutes ahead of the SIs

[Mellsblue]

Oh, god. Charlie Morgan posting a gif on how F. Smith worked hard to get back to put off DuPont, from 2m behind, for the dropped pass with the try line begging. My Farrell PTSD is rearing its ugly head and I don’t want it to as Smith is already a better all round 10.

[p/d]

Oh, god. Charlie Morgan posting a gif on how F. Smith worked hard to get back to put off DuPont, from 2m behind, for the dropped pass with the try line begging. My Farrell PTSD is rearing its ugly head and I don’t want it to as Smith is already a better all round 10.

When I watched it I thought completely the opposite.

[Scrumhead]

Oh, god. Charlie Morgan posting a gif on how F. Smith worked hard to get back to put off DuPont, from 2m behind, for the dropped pass with the try line begging. My Farrell PTSD is rearing its ugly head and I don’t want it to as Smith is already a better all round 10.

I’ve already labelled it as the ‘Finn wank’. We’re going to hear a lot of it.

Regulation passes will be lauded as ‘world class’ and if he puts in a good tackle he will be ‘Wilkinson reborn’.

It’s a shame because I really like him as a player and I fear the constant fluffing is going to sicken me.

[Which Tyler]

Oh gods, I hope you're wrong

[p/d]

Oh, god. Charlie Morgan posting a gif on how F. Smith worked hard to get back to put off DuPont, from 2m behind, for the dropped pass with the try line begging. My Farrell PTSD is rearing its ugly head and I don’t want it to as Smith is already a better all round 10.

I’ve already labelled it as the ‘Finn wank’. We’re going to hear a lot of it.

Regulation passes will be lauded as ‘world class’ and if he puts in a good tackle he will be ‘Wilkinson reborn’.

It’s a shame because I really like him as a player and I fear the constant fluffing is going to sicken me.

This is the fear. Didn’t help he was awarded motm in light of Curry’s showing.
But we have had it with every 10 before, and no doubt we will after.

[FKAS]

Oh, god. Charlie Morgan posting a gif on how F. Smith worked hard to get back to put off DuPont, from 2m behind, for the dropped pass with the try line begging. My Farrell PTSD is rearing its ugly head and I don’t want it to as Smith is already a better all round 10.

I’ve already labelled it as the ‘Finn wank’. We’re going to hear a lot of it.

Regulation passes will be lauded as ‘world class’ and if he puts in a good tackle he will be ‘Wilkinson reborn’.

It’s a shame because I really like him as a player and I fear the constant fluffing is going to sicken me.

This is the fear. Didn’t help he was awarded motm in light of Curry’s showing.
But we have had it with every 10 before, and no doubt we will after.

Oh yeah, we've had a couple of years with all the pundits tugging themselves dry over Marcus and now he's struggling and composed Fin is the new messiah. Can't be as bad as it was for the Ice Man when mediocrity was lauded by seemingly everyone.

[Puja]

I'm just glad he didn't get his head turned by Scotland. Was searching for an old post the other day and came across one bemoaning that Roebuck and FSmith were likely lost to us cause Scotland had an A game coming up and were bound to cap them.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Jamie George highlights. Great stuff.

[Stom]

Jamie George highlights. Great stuff.

It's easy to forget how good he is. Hard to notice sometimes, but he's always simply there. Makes a big difference, still. I think he's got a good couple of years in him. Could just about make it to the World Cup.

[fivepointer]

He made a difference. Thats probably as effective as hes been for quite a while.