Scottish Caley Fan wrote:Do you reckon Vellacott could sneak his way into the Autumn Squad or is that pushing it?
One player I'd REALLY like to see get capped or a call up is Luke Crosbie .
I think Vellacott will get called for sure. Make sure there’s no turning back for him!
Crosbie will be a bit of a breakthrough player this year, I fancy. If I’m right and he’s playing/ training well, I’d expect some minutes v Tonga and go from there.
I’d also like Murrayfield to get those posts that light up like in that Australian comp. I think it’s possibly the missing ingredient.
Scottish Caley Fan wrote:Do you reckon Vellacott could sneak his way into the Autumn Squad or is that pushing it?
One player I'd REALLY like to see get capped or a call up is Luke Crosbie .
I haven't seen the pre-season friendlies where he's apparently been decent, but struggle to see him being ahead of Price or Horne for a while. Dobbie is the big one I'd like to see come through this year.
Crosbie is a good shout. If he's fit he'll have a chance to get some starts at Edinburgh with Watson away for the first few weeks.
Vellacott's first task is to nail the starting Edinburgh spot. Its not a given that he will. When he first started to get some game time for Glouc I thought he was very good indeed, but reality is he didn't kick on, in fact went back in the pecking order. His move to Wasps was as it tuned out a bit of a disaster (mainly injury related).
So what we have right now is a scrum half who historically has impressed coming off the bench for 20mins or so. Most 9s seem to up the pace when they come on, and this impression is one that many young 9s show - but not all are anything like the same when starting, where game management is a much bigger attribute.
We have seen the same recently from Sheil at Edinburgh. Horne for all he is much more established is still a much better bench option than a starter. Steele for a long time was the same, and altho he looks to have stepped up last season, he will be mainly playing off the bench for Quins. Dobie looks to have real potential to manage a game but he has also shown a couple of wobblies in trying too much too early.
All of that means if Vellecott can nail the starting spot for Edinburgh, and show he can manage a game - kick well, get a fast flat accurate pass to 10 every time, not just try to break every other ball, then he could well be called up for the AIs. But it is not a given.
[quote="Scottish Caley Fan"
One player I'd REALLY like to see get capped or a call up is Luke Crosbie .[/quote]
me too. He was poor last season though, big disappointment.
he could be one who will benefit from a different head coach and gameplan, felt Cockerill used him far too much for close on carries, whereas where is better is a bit wider and he can get a head of steam up. Just like Mata, which is the problem - don't think can carry both playing that role. Another issue is how Blair want to play will determine how the back row is made up. When Watson is away he might want a like for like - Boyle. I think Crosbie needs to kick on this season or look to move on
septic 9 wrote:[quote="Scottish Caley Fan"
One player I'd REALLY like to see get capped or a call up is Luke Crosbie .
me too. He was poor last season though, big disappointment.
he could be one who will benefit from a different head coach and gameplan, felt Cockerill used him far too much for close on carries, whereas where is better is a bit wider and he can get a head of steam up. Just like Mata, which is the problem - don't think can carry both playing that role. Another issue is how Blair want to play will determine how the back row is made up. When Watson is away he might want a like for like - Boyle. I think Crosbie needs to kick on this season or look to move on[/quote]
Based on the weekend Crosbies going to get pushed for playing time by Muncaster pretty soon. Last season the former never really got going with a injuries and then playing in a poorly performing unit. Agree it's a big season for him given it's likely that one of Ritchie/Watson/Mata are always likely to be unavailable.
Blair seems to want to play much faster. A shame that we lost Ally Miller to Glasgow, think it might have really suited him.
switchskier wrote:Back from a weekend in Edinburgh. Thoroughly enjoyed the game, even if it was only a friendly, can't argue with scoring 50 points. Let the wild optimism start.
Vellacot is going to be a bit of a fan favourite. He doesn't do everything well but he just looks so sparky and keen. There's a good chance that we'll beat that out of him but with Blair in charge and his evident desire to play at tempo might suit him.
Kinghorn at ten seems to be a thing now. Presumably that means that neither Chamberlain or Savala are deemed ready yet.
What’s the new stadium like? Will it survive a stiff breeze in November? Are the stantions rubbish? Ot, is it good?
Hard to tell. Felt ok but there's a lot of work for fans to get some atmosphere going.
Blair is going for it. Kinghorn at ten, Vellacot, Sykes and Hutchinson starting and great to see Boyle on the bench. Disappointed that there's no Shiel but can't have everything and I can understand having Pyrgos and JVDW (and Nel) on the bench to steady things if necessary.
Won't see the game sadly but more excited about this Edinburgh team than I have been about any for a couple of seasons. Don't think that we win at Scarlets but hoping to hear about signs of progress.
15. Henry Immelman *
14. Darcy Graham (39)
13. Mark Bennett (54)
12. Cammy Hutchison (2)
11. Damien Hoyland (85)
10. Blair Kinghorn (102)
9. Ben Vellacott*
1. Pierre Schoeman (65)
2. Stuart McInally (153)
3. Lee Roy Atalifo (10)
4. Marshall Sykes (8)
5. Grant Gilchrist (159) CAPTAIN
6. Jamie Ritchie (77)
7. Luke Crosbie (58)
8. Viliame Mata (89)
Replacements: 16. Dave Cherry (36) 17. Boan Venter (8) 18. WP Nel (156) 19. Jamie Hodgson (23) 20. Connor Boyle (7) 21. Henry Pyrgos (53) 22. Jaco van der Walt (71) 23. James Lang*
Unavailable due to injury: Magnus Bradbury, Matt Currie, Nick Haining, George Taylor, Ben Toolis, Hamish Watson, Glen Young
Just remembered this is on S4C. Edinburgh playing well from what I’ve seen, and I think the stadium is working well. Decent atmosphere and they’ve even been booing. Must be Glasgow fans who didn’t want to go through to ulster.
Kinghorn at ten is also working, and I like the look of the boy hutchison too.
Superb try from Graham there. Vellacott also playing well. To answer a question above, I can see him being in the national squad if he plays like this.
Vellacott looks the real deal
Edinburgh look pretty fit
Everyone looks engaged and clear what to do
They are playing at a speed that will cause a lot of teams issues
But
They let scarlets get at least 2 trys they didn’t deserve and had no 2nd half strategy. They really need a plan B
whatisthejava wrote:Lots of positives for Edinburgh.
Vellacott looks the real deal
Edinburgh look pretty fit
Everyone looks engaged and clear what to do
They are playing at a speed that will cause a lot of teams issues
But
They let scarlets get at least 2 trys they didn’t deserve and had no 2nd half strategy. They really need a plan B
I hear you. Also, as soon as I typed the above praise of Vellacott, he went a bit off his game! However, I’m happy to chalk the harem scarem bits of the second half down to “first game of the season syndrome”.
That said, perhaps the lack of strategy was itself a strategy! There was lots of talk that they have to come up with solutions on the pitch now, rather than stick rigidly to a plan.
whatisthejava wrote:Lots of positives for Edinburgh.
Vellacott looks the real deal
Edinburgh look pretty fit
Everyone looks engaged and clear what to do
They are playing at a speed that will cause a lot of teams issues
But
They let scarlets get at least 2 trys they didn’t deserve and had no 2nd half strategy. They really need a plan B
Could be, it’s easy to critique or forgive some of the nonsense after one game. Such a breathe of fresh air after last year but they could have lost that game if the scarlets had a bit more structure and focus around them (perhaps a little more luck with key injury’s)
A lot of the issues were summed up in the last 30 seconds where we were bumming about on the pitch and then gave scarlets another chance to win the game.
I hear you. Also, as soon as I typed the above praise of Vellacott, he went a bit off his game! However, I’m happy to chalk the harem scarem bits of the second half down to “first game of the season syndrome”.
That said, perhaps the lack of strategy was itself a strategy! There was lots of talk that they have to come up with solutions on the pitch now, rather than stick rigidly to a plan.
I watched this early this morning as I had in on record and, boy what a match it was :O. If this is the sort of matches we get in the URC then I am going to enjoy watching a lot of the matches .
For me, Ben Vellacott and Darcy Graham were the standouts, my god Darcy likes to run with ball in hand.
As a Scot, there were lots of positives, the main one being BV: I wonder if he will get in the squad a month from now.
Jamie Ritchie, Pierre Schoeman, James Lang also had good games imho so I reckon Gregor Townsend will have taken a lot out of this match if he was watching in person or on the TV back home.
whatisthejava wrote:Lots of positives for Edinburgh.
Vellacott looks the real deal
Edinburgh look pretty fit
Everyone looks engaged and clear what to do
They are playing at a speed that will cause a lot of teams issues
But
They let scarlets get at least 2 trys they didn’t deserve and had no 2nd half strategy. They really need a plan B
I hear you. Also, as soon as I typed the above praise of Vellacott, he went a bit off his game! However, I’m happy to chalk the harem scarem bits of the second half down to “first game of the season syndrome”.
That said, perhaps the lack of strategy was itself a strategy! There was lots of talk that they have to come up with solutions on the pitch now, rather than stick rigidly to a plan.
a good win if the type of game Edinburgh need to be winning at home. But it was messy, narrow and a bit lucky to stay ahead in the end.
Vellacott played as he can, darting about, tap pens and good breaks. Played like a 9 coming on after 60mins to chase a game. entertaining as it was, good bit of his success was down to sleepy early Scarlets defending - just like the try Schoeman conceded to their 9. And his box kicking was very poor all through IMHO, which fortunately is a much smaller issue under Blair than it would have been under Cockerill.
Edinburgh still have a problem at 10. Kinghorn like Vellacott imposed no structure or control on the game. Got away with a it (except it was a large reason for the close result) against Scarlets on a fine day in September. Desperately need better when it comes to the winter months. And as a 10, VDW would make a passable crash ball 10, behind about 4 or 5 other Edin players
whatisthejava wrote:Lots of positives for Edinburgh.
Vellacott looks the real deal
Edinburgh look pretty fit
Everyone looks engaged and clear what to do
They are playing at a speed that will cause a lot of teams issues
But
They let scarlets get at least 2 trys they didn’t deserve and had no 2nd half strategy. They really need a plan B
I hear you. Also, as soon as I typed the above praise of Vellacott, he went a bit off his game! However, I’m happy to chalk the harem scarem bits of the second half down to “first game of the season syndrome”.
That said, perhaps the lack of strategy was itself a strategy! There was lots of talk that they have to come up with solutions on the pitch now, rather than stick rigidly to a plan.
a good win if the type of game Edinburgh need to be winning at home. But it was messy, narrow and a bit lucky to stay ahead in the end.
Vellacott played as he can, darting about, tap pens and good breaks. Played like a 9 coming on after 60mins to chase a game. entertaining as it was, good bit of his success was down to sleepy early Scarlets defending - just like the try Schoeman conceded to their 9. And his box kicking was very poor all through IMHO, which fortunately is a much smaller issue under Blair than it would have been under Cockerill.
Edinburgh still have a problem at 10. Kinghorn like Vellacott imposed no structure or control on the game. Got away with a it (except it was a large reason for the close result) against Scarlets on a fine day in September. Desperately need better when it comes to the winter months. And as a 10, VDW would make a passable crash ball 10, behind about 4 or 5 other Edin players
Didn't see the game but if Kinghorn is going to be a ten then he needs to be given time in the jersey to learn game management. He's never played there as a pro and has only schoolboy rugby to fall back on.
Mind you, I don't see vdw creating or scoring that first Edinburgh try. So willing to give him a bit of a pass in what should be a bit of a development season for us.
Good result but watching back , poor numbers for hardy try and I think for macnichols the guy beside gilchrist bites in meaning that kinghorn is sucked in and then it’s just good running lines by 13.
Main thing is, they got the win so they need to keep improving
First game of the season under a new coach with new structures and even the existing coaches may have different ideas. That being the case you take the win and move on. Opening games of the season can often give false impressions of where teams are at. Edinburgh need to build on that win.
It was a game that would have been easy to lose but they didn't. Both Blair and the players will learn from this.
On 10, I am willing to see what Blair (Mike) is trying to do and whether it works. I am not really in any hurry to see VdW at 10 for 60min at a time.
switchskier wrote:
Didn't see the game but if Kinghorn is going to be a ten then he needs to be given time in the jersey to learn game management. He's never played there as a pro and has only schoolboy rugby to fall back on.
100% this - though he did play a bit at 10 for the U20s and was rank. VDW would still be running for the line if he was on the end of Kinghorn's try. Don't think most realise just how quick he is. For a guy his size he is surprisingly quick off the mark and into his stride he just eats the ground like Usain Bolt. I have my doubts that he has what it takes to control a game and manipulate teams and positions*, but only one way to find out. My main issue with moves like this is that you weaken another position to your "best player" into a position where you are already weak so can easily end up with 2nd best in both. On the plus side it should help Kinghorn's concentration to play at 10 - constant involvement. So far the only thing we have learned is it isn't helping his tackling
* just to add, if he cannot do this, couple it with Vellacott's poor kicking game, and Edinburgh have a serious problem
You’d hope they’ll find some balance over time. But a kick up the arse for the incumbent halfbacks can’t be too bad a thing. It will be interesting to see how much they mix and match the safe/stodgy options with the fast and loose ones.
It does seem odd moving Kinghorn at this stage. It feels like it essentially ends his Scotland career if he’s a full-time flyhalf for his club. Or maybe he’ll just be seen as more versatile. Hastings is a far better 10 and a pretty good 15, but Kinghorn’s best Scotland games, for me, have all been on the wing.
Getting him on the ball as much as possible and seeing what happens will certainly make me more keen to watch Edinburgh though.
Mikey Brown wrote:You’d hope they’ll find some balance over time. But a kick up the arse for the incumbent halfbacks can’t be too bad a thing. It will be interesting to see how much they mix and match the safe/stodgy options with the fast and loose ones.
It does seem odd moving Kinghorn at this stage. It feels like it essentially ends his Scotland career if he’s a full-time flyhalf for his club. Or maybe he’ll just be seen as more versatile. Hastings is a far better 10 and a pretty good 15, but Kinghorn’s best Scotland games, for me, have all been on the wing.
Getting him on the ball as much as possible and seeing what happens will certainly make me more keen to watch Edinburgh though.
Boffelli is on the way right?
not a fan of VDW but all the half backs needed a better game plan and coaching. For example, an excellent article (and he has done a few of these now) in the Times by Barclay last week addresses this in part. He talks about Pyrgos being the limited game manager, but correctly points out how Pyrgos played for the really good Weegie side that won the league - quick accurate ball, not many kicks, enough breaks and pace to keep defences honest, and often got on the end of a move tacking someone else's break - all rare indeed at Edinburgh under Cockerill. Even VDW will be better given more freedom to play, or allowed more variety than one out charge up 3 times then box kick or punt
Mikey Brown wrote:You’d hope they’ll find some balance over time. But a kick up the arse for the incumbent halfbacks can’t be too bad a thing. It will be interesting to see how much they mix and match the safe/stodgy options with the fast and loose ones.
It does seem odd moving Kinghorn at this stage. It feels like it essentially ends his Scotland career if he’s a full-time flyhalf for his club. Or maybe he’ll just be seen as more versatile. Hastings is a far better 10 and a pretty good 15, but Kinghorn’s best Scotland games, for me, have all been on the wing.
Getting him on the ball as much as possible and seeing what happens will certainly make me more keen to watch Edinburgh though.
Boffelli is on the way right?
not a fan of VDW but all the half backs needed a better game plan and coaching. For example, an excellent article (and he has done a few of these now) in the Times by Barclay last week addresses this in part. He talks about Pyrgos being the limited game manager, but correctly points out how Pyrgos played for the really good Weegie side that won the league - quick accurate ball, not many kicks, enough breaks and pace to keep defences honest, and often got on the end of a move tacking someone else's break - all rare indeed at Edinburgh under Cockerill. Even VDW will be better given more freedom to play, or allowed more variety than one out charge up 3 times then box kick or punt
Any chance you could share Barclays article (and ideally the one about Cockerill from a while back)? He seems willing to make more concrete specific points than most ex pros.
Mike Blair has long been groomed to follow in the footsteps of Gregor Townsend. It was always a matter of ‘when’ rather than ‘if’ he would get the chance to head up one of the pro teams. He now has the reins at his old club and I am really looking forward to seeing how he brings all of his knowledge and study to bear by making this Edinburgh side
his own.
Even as a young player with a lack of experience, he was destined to become a coach. He has always been a true rugby pig, which, bizarrely, is a compliment in this world. Mike thinks deeply about the game. Unhappy to simply go with status quo, he picks apart and dissects to discover if there is a better way. His approach and energy are infectious; they improve both himself and those around him, which is what he has consistently done as an assistant coach with Glasgow and Scotland.
Let’s be clear, however. The transition from assistant to a head coach is not straightforward. How much did he learn from his time under Gregor, in particular from the pain that accompanied both players and management home from the 2019 World Cup? Having a plan is one thing. Adapting and evolving it is a huge part of the gig, one which often involves putting aside pride and working with those around you.
Predicting the style Edinburgh will adopt is not as straightforward as looking at the type of player Mike was and expecting his team to mirror it. Mike was renowned for his attacking prowess as a player and is now known for his analysis and innovation around attack as a coach; but as we learnt in Japan, the game is about far more than attack. It will be fascintating to see how Mike balances his natural inclination towards the attacking style which has always defined him and the defensive side which, in modern rugby, tends to determine if you win or lose.
What, too, of the softer skills required by a head coach? It is crucial to create a sustainable culture where even those not selected feel like they are contributing. You need a positive environment where players are excited to come to work and improve, and where the team comes first. High-performing sides foster cultures of “we”, not the “them and us” that existed at Edinburgh in the Richard Cockerill era. How you communicate with players and involve them in their own rugby development plan is also vital. The best coaches I worked with were always the honest ones, and in Mike you have someone who will not shy away from uncomfortable conversations. I firmly believe he has the communication skills and empathy to be able to transmit that spirit to the players he now works with.
Edinburgh must find the form that helped them reach the semi-finals of the Pro14 in
2019-20 before becoming one of the worst-performing teams last year. Cockerill instilled some good habits, but the game plan was horribly turgid and style of play fundamentally limited.
Playing one-out rugby relies on having the biggest and most powerful players. Edinburgh don’t have that. They have a combative pack with mobility and good handling skills, yet ended up with a mantra of “go route one, and if that doesn’t work, just do route one better”.
Edinburgh became brutally predictable and missed the opportunity to evolve at a time when the opposition saw their strengths as being in the tight exchanges. Playing with more width and adding an extra pass could have put them in behind so many defences, but they ploughed on headfirst. By the end, even Glasgow, one of the lighter packs and teams out there, figured out that they could ignore the wider channels and flood the front line, in particular the first, second and third receivers. Even if the ball got beyond them, Edinburgh were almost certain to be caught man-and-ball behind the gainline.
With Mike, these players are blessed to have a coach who has the ability to see the game differently to just about anyone else I’ve come across. He certainly could identify space and opportunities that were invisible to my eye, and he always had the gift that the best players all seem to possess: time on the ball.
Where should Edinburgh’s evolution start? At a very basic level, they need to start viewing attack as a means of manipulating defences rather than looking to bludgeon them. Ben Vellacott, Henry Pyrgos and Charlie Shiel, the frontline scrum halves, are all good at sniping in and around the base, an area where Mike himself had few peers. Allow the nine to do this and you’ll suddenly find your big men hitting the arms of defenders rather than their shoulders.
Next up would be ending the obsession with the box kick. Looking at how, when and why you are using it is stage one. Employed sparingly, it can be a very useful tactic, but for so long Edinburgh have defaulted to it all over the pitch. It has also made Pyrgos look like a one-trick pony when, as anyone who watched him in Glasgow’s run to the 2015 league title can attest, he is more than capable of stretching defences with ball in hand.
As ever, it’s a case of playing to people’s strengths. Edinburgh need to use their best players in the channels where they can have the biggest impact: let’s see Bill Mata, Hamish Watson and Jamie Ritchie allowed to move into the wider areas where they can really get behind teams. These guys have the capacity to dent defences and do the grunt work. However where they thrive is in space. Their speed, power and skills mean that, for smaller defenders, trying to handle them in wider channels is a total nightmare.
Edinburgh need to start playing with confidence, not fear, from tomorrow’s United Rugby Championship season opener at home to Scarlets. For too long, they’ve settled for being a hard team to beat, which is the same as playing not to lose. I would delight in seeing them going out and imposing their style on the opposition, and I’m convinced that this is what Mike will want too.
The group has more than enough players with the experience, rugby intelligence and personality to be empowered to make decisions. They do not need to be micro-managed from the sidelines to anything like the degree we have witnessed in the last couple of years.
For some players in the squad, the regime change will feel like a rebirth. Blair Kinghorn, who was one of the most exciting young talents in Britain when I joined Edinburgh in 2018, has all the skills to make it to the very top. Mike will, I fancy, bring the best out of the now 24-year-old by letting him be himself.
There are other fine but as yet not fully fulfilled players who I also expect to flourish under a different leadership style. Shiel, Harry Paterson, Luke Crosbie, James Lang, Mark Bennett — the raw materials are all to hand.
On paper, the Ritchie-Watson-Mata back row is up there with the best in Europe, but how often have we actually seen it on grass in recent memory? With more sympathetic scheduling and, we trust, less intrusion from Covid, hopefully this can be rectified out on the artificial turf of Edinburgh’s new stadium. The whole scenario — new ground, new coach, new season — is a huge chance for these players to write a fresh and distinct chapter. Such opportunities do not come around too often, so I fervently hope that they grab this one and run with it. Quite literally.
And just as we say he needs a run of games Kinghorn hits the injury list. Boyle gets the start ahead of crosbie which is positive for the former, and Blain seems to be first choice finally so maybe we'll see him alongside McLean in the november scotland squad. Shiel shifts Pyrgos from the bench and the props rotate. Sykes dropped, which is disappointing.
We cut Bennetton open pretty easily in preseason but no idea how close that was to their first team. They were a decent side at home last season but I'm feeling this weird optimism. I don't like it, only a disappointing loss will do to rectify things.
15. Henry Immelman (1)
14. Darcy Graham (40)
13. Mark Bennett (55)
12. James Lang (1)
11. Jack Blain (16)
10. Jaco van der Walt (72)
9. Ben Vellacott (1)
1. Boan Venter (8)
2. Stuart McInally (154)
3. WP Nel (157)
4. Jamie Hodgson (24)
5. Grant Gilchrist (160) CAPTAIN
6. Jamie Ritchie (78)
7. Connor Boyle (8)
8. Viliame Mata (90)
Replacements: 16. Dave Cherry (37) 17. Pierre Schoeman (66) 18. Lee-Roy Atalifo (11) 19. Pierce Phillips* 20. Luke Crosbie (59) 21. Charlie Shiel (37) 22. Chris Dean (108) 23. Ramiro Moyano
.
.