RugbyRebels

whatisthejava wrote:Its a bit mental that you compare Scotland now to 4 years ago

Since then we have risen from 9th to 5th in the world
Beaten Australia, Argentina, been within a whisker of a RWC semi final
Had a team at the challenge cup final
Won 3 games in the 6N
Beaten everyone bar England in the 6N

and there is a strong possibility we could have 1 scot in the initial 37, in fact i think you could add an extra player to every position and still make a decent argument for taking no scots apart from Hogg,

Just think Hogg takes a knock and we would have zero lions.

edit
To be clear I think several scots deserve to go but without a sponsor in the lions coaching teams its clear others will be preffered, this isnt nepotism or favortism its just coaches back players they know and scotland getting stuffed inside and outby England will really not have helped them at all.

I'm going to be a pedant but when did we beat Aus in the last four years?

2012... I remember it well.

ARM wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Its a bit mental that you compare Scotland now to 4 years ago

Since then we have risen from 9th to 5th in the world
Beaten Australia, Argentina, been within a whisker of a RWC semi final
Had a team at the challenge cup final
Won 3 games in the 6N
Beaten everyone bar England in the 6N

and there is a strong possibility we could have 1 scot in the initial 37, in fact i think you could add an extra player to every position and still make a decent argument for taking no scots apart from Hogg,

Just think Hogg takes a knock and we would have zero lions.

edit
To be clear I think several scots deserve to go but without a sponsor in the lions coaching teams its clear others will be preffered, this isnt nepotism or favortism its just coaches back players they know and scotland getting stuffed inside and outby England will really not have helped them at all.

I'm going to be a pedant but when did we beat Aus in the last four years?

Apologies, thought that was after the last lions.

5 years in June , thought it was the year after the lions

You could also add that the Scottish backs have been the most dangerous and effective over the last two 6Ns but the Lions could end up taking only one of them.

Matt Ha wrote:You could also add that the Scottish backs have been the most dangerous and effective over the last two 6Ns but the Lions could end up taking only one of them.

Gatland has destroyed welsh backs, his plan is to beat the all blacks by scoring 3. It will fail.

Two teams have beaten the All Blacks 3-0. Wales in 1905 (only defeat of the Originals, with controversy over Bob Deans' "try") and France in 1954.

whatisthejava wrote: edit
To be clear I think several scots deserve to go but without a sponsor in the lions coaching teams its clear others will be preffered, this isnt nepotism or favortism its just coaches back players they know and scotland getting stuffed inside and outby England will really not have helped them at all.

Nepotism or favouritism by any other name....

A current active national coach will favour the players he knows and look for reasons to select them. Gatland (in particular) doesn't like Scottish players, never has and consciously or sub-consciously looks for reasons not to select them.

Put it this way. Our game at Twickenham was bad but will the Wales players who gave up 20 unanswered points at Murrayfield see their chances similarly scuppered?
What does favourites Ireland giving up 3 tries to us in the 1st half then failing to close out from a winning position say about their mental state and ability to play away from home?

Under present circumstances I think we are as well out of Gatland's regime & better off touring with the new coach or getting a summer rest.

You could revive the 1908 "Anglo Welsh" team (retrospectively regarded as a Lions Touring side for some reason).

"Dr Tom Smyth's 1910 team to South Africa dark blue jerseys, were introduced with white shorts and the red socks of 1908. The jerseys also had a single lion-rampant crest" (Wikipedia)

Gatland still wouldn't find a Scottish player to fill one.

af73 wrote:

whatisthejava wrote: edit
To be clear I think several scots deserve to go but without a sponsor in the lions coaching teams its clear others will be preffered, this isnt nepotism or favortism its just coaches back players they know and scotland getting stuffed inside and outby England will really not have helped them at all.

Nepotism or favouritism by any other name....

A current active national coach will favour the players he knows and look for reasons to select them. Gatland (in particular) doesn't like Scottish players, never has and consciously or sub-consciously looks for reasons not to select them.

Put it this way. Our game at Twickenham was bad but will the Wales players who gave up 20 unanswered points at Murrayfield see their chances similarly scuppered?
What does favourites Ireland giving up 3 tries to us in the 1st half then failing to close out from a winning position say about their mental state and ability to play away from home?

Under present circumstances I think we are as well out of Gatland's regime & better off touring with the new coach or getting a summer rest.

I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

af73 wrote:

whatisthejava wrote: edit
To be clear I think several scots deserve to go but without a sponsor in the lions coaching teams its clear others will be preffered, this isnt nepotism or favortism its just coaches back players they know and scotland getting stuffed inside and outby England will really not have helped them at all.

Nepotism or favouritism by any other name....

A current active national coach will favour the players he knows and look for reasons to select them. Gatland (in particular) doesn't like Scottish players, never has and consciously or sub-consciously looks for reasons not to select them.

Put it this way. Our game at Twickenham was bad but will the Wales players who gave up 20 unanswered points at Murrayfield see their chances similarly scuppered?
What does favourites Ireland giving up 3 tries to us in the 1st half then failing to close out from a winning position say about their mental state and ability to play away from home?

Under present circumstances I think we are as well out of Gatland's regime & better off touring with the new coach or getting a summer rest.

I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

Bang on the money here, Eugene. Both in the aftermath of the game and weeks later I am still absolutely astounded as the denial I see on this board. That was the single worst performance in living memory for me and I was watching many of the Matt Williams era games. They trounced us like a tier 3 nation.

England were superb but their heads dropped the minute one major call did not go their way. That shows a serious mental fragility that means most of our players are not Lions quality. Watson is the only guy who game out of that game with any credit really and it's no surprise that he's probably our second best shot at a Lions tourist.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

If we remove Italy from the equation it looks a hell of a lot worse for Wales, Ireland and England

The biggest issue for potential scot tourists is there isnt a coach in their corner come the discussions, i dont think this is nepotisim its just reality of modern coaching, modern coaches get a hell of a lot more time with their players than previous coaches so know them more as individuals and players, they also have armies of analysts pouring over stats and as Euge has demonstated by comparing ireland attack with Scotland stats are meaningless, (*cough 9 tries against italy skew your results ever so much* )

Gatland has said it time and again, it comes down to opinion and he will put Wales 20 points down to Wales having a bad day at the office because he knows the players and trusts them.

The biggest question for us moving forward towards the summer are

Does Swinson get the nod if Jonny Gray tours
Who plays full back

we have also had 4 years of Jonson and Cotter capping lots and lots of players, should Toonie continue this or try and reduce new caps to a minimum and try and build a core 35 players who will take him to the next world cup

whatisthejava wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

If we remove Italy from the equation it looks a hell of a lot worse for Wales, Ireland and England

The biggest issue for potential scot tourists is there isnt a coach in their corner come the discussions, i dont think this is nepotisim its just reality of modern coaching, modern coaches get a hell of a lot more time with their players than previous coaches so know them more as individuals and players, they also have armies of analysts pouring over stats and as Euge has demonstated by comparing ireland attack with Scotland stats are meaningless, (*cough 9 tries against italy skew your results ever so much* )

Gatland has said it time and again, it comes down to opinion and he will put Wales 20 points down to Wales having a bad day at the office because he knows the players and trusts them.

The biggest question for us moving forward towards the summer are

Does Swinson get the nod if Jonny Gray tours
Who plays full back

we have also had 4 years of Jonson and Cotter capping lots and lots of players, should Toonie continue this or try and reduce new caps to a minimum and try and build a core 35 players who will take him to the next world cup

No it does not. If you remove Italy from the equation then the only team that got stomped on in the tournament is Scotland. Could you at least show a little bit of impartiality please? It's embarrassing. You cannot just remove games from the equation because they do not suit your argument.

You're losing the plot. If we were competitive against England we'd have more players included in the selection conversations.

whatisthejava wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

If we remove Italy from the equation it looks a hell of a lot worse for Wales, Ireland and England

The biggest issue for potential scot tourists is there isnt a coach in their corner come the discussions, i dont think this is nepotisim its just reality of modern coaching, modern coaches get a hell of a lot more time with their players than previous coaches so know them more as individuals and players, they also have armies of analysts pouring over stats and as Euge has demonstated by comparing ireland attack with Scotland stats are meaningless, (*cough 9 tries against italy skew your results ever so much* )

Gatland has said it time and again, it comes down to opinion and he will put Wales 20 points down to Wales having a bad day at the office because he knows the players and trusts them.

The biggest question for us moving forward towards the summer are

Does Swinson get the nod if Jonny Gray tours
Who plays full back

we have also had 4 years of Jonson and Cotter capping lots and lots of players, should Toonie continue this or try and reduce new caps to a minimum and try and build a core 35 players who will take him to the next world cup

At this stage, he needs to focus on the RWC team. Develop those players and then look for new talent after the next tournament.

This talk about favouritism happens every 4 years. Ive still to see anything as blatant as SCW in 05 who had picked his team 12 months before the tour and completely went with players he knew and trusted. Most international coaches will fall into that trap to a degree, but the sad fact is that on previous outs years, Scotland have been desperately poor. Its hard to pick individuals when the team is falling apart and its a 50/50 call.

This year Scotland have been better and I think their touring contingent will be larger. Wales should be smaller with the bulk of players from England and Ireland. Thats a fair reflection on current form.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

af73 wrote:
Nepotism or favouritism by any other name....

A current active national coach will favour the players he knows and look for reasons to select them. Gatland (in particular) doesn't like Scottish players, never has and consciously or sub-consciously looks for reasons not to select them.

Put it this way. Our game at Twickenham was bad but will the Wales players who gave up 20 unanswered points at Murrayfield see their chances similarly scuppered?
What does favourites Ireland giving up 3 tries to us in the 1st half then failing to close out from a winning position say about their mental state and ability to play away from home?

Under present circumstances I think we are as well out of Gatland's regime & better off touring with the new coach or getting a summer rest.

I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

Bang on the money here, Eugene. Both in the aftermath of the game and weeks later I am still absolutely astounded as the denial I see on this board. That was the single worst performance in living memory for me and I was watching many of the Matt Williams era games. They trounced us like a tier 3 nation.

England were superb but their heads dropped the minute one major call did not go their way. That shows a serious mental fragility that means most of our players are not Lions quality. Watson is the only guy who game out of that game with any credit really and it's no surprise that he's probably our second best shot at a Lions tourist.

We evidently remember the Matt Williams era very differently. Italy, France, Ireland in 2004 stands out in my memory where we got smashed playing an utterly turgid style of rugby with our new national coach told that his services weren't required at the grand old age of 31. That was (hopefully) our nadir.

But i agree with you that we're not the best attacking side in the 6N yet. However i think the statement is pointless, match-ups and styles of playing matter.

Id say the 33-0 drubbing by France under Williams i think was pretty awful,
20-0 against England at home was pretty bad
40-10 against Ireland at home was also pretty nasty

Something that has always struck me as weird is even though Scotland has been pretty crap since the millenium our record against the SH (including Argentina) is far far better than the MH teams.

Sandydragon wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

If we remove Italy from the equation it looks a hell of a lot worse for Wales, Ireland and England

The biggest issue for potential scot tourists is there isnt a coach in their corner come the discussions, i dont think this is nepotisim its just reality of modern coaching, modern coaches get a hell of a lot more time with their players than previous coaches so know them more as individuals and players, they also have armies of analysts pouring over stats and as Euge has demonstated by comparing ireland attack with Scotland stats are meaningless, (*cough 9 tries against italy skew your results ever so much* )

Gatland has said it time and again, it comes down to opinion and he will put Wales 20 points down to Wales having a bad day at the office because he knows the players and trusts them.

The biggest question for us moving forward towards the summer are

Does Swinson get the nod if Jonny Gray tours
Who plays full back

we have also had 4 years of Jonson and Cotter capping lots and lots of players, should Toonie continue this or try and reduce new caps to a minimum and try and build a core 35 players who will take him to the next world cup

At this stage, he needs to focus on the RWC team. Develop those players and then look for new talent after the next tournament.

This talk about favouritism happens every 4 years. Ive still to see anything as blatant as SCW in 05 who had picked his team 12 months before the tour and completely went with players he knew and trusted. Most international coaches will fall into that trap to a degree, but the sad fact is that on previous outs years, Scotland have been desperately poor. Its hard to pick individuals when the team is falling apart and its a 50/50 call.

This year Scotland have been better and I think their touring contingent will be larger. Wales should be smaller with the bulk of players from England and Ireland. Thats a fair reflection on current form.

Nah. Have said this before and I'll say it again - far too much focus on the RWC. It is not as if we're going to win it.

Just needs to focus on winning games.
Continue the recent (but fairly new) trend of winning at Murrayfield
Start to pick off some away wins.
Turn over a SH side (that is not RG) at home.

But he should settle on a fairly tight squad and ensure some consistency of selection. We still have a pretty young average age and they need to keep building up experience.

whatisthejava wrote:Id say the 33-0 drubbing by France under Williams i think was pretty awful,
20-0 against England at home was pretty bad
40-10 against Ireland at home was also pretty nasty

Something that has always struck me as weird is even though Scotland has been pretty crap since the millenium our record against the SH (including Argentina) is far far better than the MH teams.

I think we're beaten in the head before we ever step on the pitch against England, Ireland and Wales. These teams look at the Scotland game in the 6N as a "should-win" which means they'll play with bags of confidence against us. Ok we pick up the odd win against them but for the most part both teams look at us as underdogs who are under pressure to win in those games.

Agin the​ SH teams I think we play like we have nothing to lose and don't put ourselves under so much pressure.

Conversely, against the SH teams, the other 6N teams put themselves in the boat that we put ourselves in during the 6N, and play like they're under massive pressure to get the results that demonstrate their progression.

Just my ha'pennys worth.

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Sounds about right. I'd only add that in the last few years there have been so many games v Ireland and Wales that Scotland feel were within reach (and squandered), whereas there really aren't many of those with England recently. Both have been hugely damaging to confidence but to differing degrees.

Donny osmond wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Id say the 33-0 drubbing by France under Williams i think was pretty awful,
20-0 against England at home was pretty bad
40-10 against Ireland at home was also pretty nasty

Something that has always struck me as weird is even though Scotland has been pretty crap since the millenium our record against the SH (including Argentina) is far far better than the MH teams.

I think we're beaten in the head before we ever step on the pitch against England, Ireland and Wales. These teams look at the Scotland game in the 6N as a "should-win" which means they'll play with bags of confidence against us. Ok we pick up the odd win against them but for the most part both teams look at us as underdogs who are under pressure to win in those games.

Agin the​ SH teams I think we play like we have nothing to lose and don't put ourselves under so much pressure.

Conversely, against the SH teams, the other 6N teams put themselves in the boat that we put ourselves in during the 6N, and play like they're under massive pressure to get the results that demonstrate their progression.

Just my ha'pennys worth.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I'd agree. Scotland have had some good wins, but nothing consistent. On the day they have wanted it more than the opposition, but they have been wins against the form book. Hopefully they can build on what Cotter has done and develop that expectation of winning.

I believe Cotter will be on/advising the selection commitee.

If you need a winning mentality then it's a shame Gavin Hastings isn't on the coaching staff. He's the most recent Scottish player to have beaten the All Blacks, being the only Scot in the 1993 Lions team for the second test (Kenny Milne and Paul Burnell were on the bench but unused in the days before tactical subs were allowed).

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

af73 wrote:
Nepotism or favouritism by any other name....

A current active national coach will favour the players he knows and look for reasons to select them. Gatland (in particular) doesn't like Scottish players, never has and consciously or sub-consciously looks for reasons not to select them.

Put it this way. Our game at Twickenham was bad but will the Wales players who gave up 20 unanswered points at Murrayfield see their chances similarly scuppered?
What does favourites Ireland giving up 3 tries to us in the 1st half then failing to close out from a winning position say about their mental state and ability to play away from home?

Under present circumstances I think we are as well out of Gatland's regime & better off touring with the new coach or getting a summer rest.

I'm afraid neither of those things is even vaguely comparable to your humiliation against England.

For all some of you seem to think Scotland were a much stronger attacking force than Ireland, you scored the same number of tries with fewer clean breaks and defenders beaten.

Bang on the money here, Eugene. Both in the aftermath of the game and weeks later I am still absolutely astounded as the denial I see on this board. That was the single worst performance in living memory for me and I was watching many of the Matt Williams era games. They trounced us like a tier 3 nation.

England were superb but their heads dropped the minute one major call did not go their way. That shows a serious mental fragility that means most of our players are not Lions quality. Watson is the only guy who game out of that game with any credit really and it's no surprise that he's probably our second best shot at a Lions tourist.

For a man that actively supports the opposition against the Lions you don't half like to shit on about it.

I wouldn't be too worried about you seeing that as the worst performance in living memory either, as you are one of the most melodramatic posters I've ever read, so it'll likely be replaced soon enough. Worst performance EVA. Lolz top kek.

Edinburgh in Exile wrote: For a man that actively supports the opposition against the Lions you don't half like to shit on about it.

I wouldn't be too worried about you seeing that as the worst performance in living memory either, as you are one of the most melodramatic posters I've ever read, so it'll likely be replaced soon enough. Worst performance EVA. Lolz top kek.

That's a bit melodramatic isn't it?

Whatever did happen to DramaQuin? or Dave for that matter?

Which Tyler wrote:

Edinburgh in Exile wrote: For a man that actively supports the opposition against the Lions you don't half like to shit on about it.

I wouldn't be too worried about you seeing that as the worst performance in living memory either, as you are one of the most melodramatic posters I've ever read, so it'll likely be replaced soon enough. Worst performance EVA. Lolz top kek.

That's a bit melodramatic isn't it?

Whatever did happen to DramaQuin? or Dave for that matter?

Haha, touché. Well played.

In my defence it's not melodrama if it's accurate.