Why do we have such a poor record of producing quality 9s?

[Mellsblue]

Where to be is easy if you don't mind them chasing the ball. Bit trickier if you want them reading the play. Zinging out 40-80 accurate, and generally long passes, off both hands, is also not that simple, that's probably more passes than some outside backs manage in a season, even a 5% poor pass rate will show up in a game. Running too often is bad, too little is bad, getting the balance right is tough, and variable, generally your vision can often be limited by a forwards fat arse. Box kicking tends to also be done under a lot of pressure, and although I have no experience of it, just looking at the technique, it would look to be much harder to control accuracy in comparison to a regular kicking style.

Its a hard position, but none of the above is impossible.

Of course, not, there's 9s out there that manage it, but Smith's kicking can still be pressured into errors (a few years ago serious pressure would lead to him completely losing it), and every 9 can have bad days. It's a tough position to get everything right, especially as so many of their "basic" skills are repeated far more than most players, if a 13 gave 1 poor pass every 3 or 4 games, people wouldn't worry too much (not great, but still), but that would be 5 or 6 for a scrum half, every game. Their error rates simply have to be a lot lower than everyone elses due to how much the ball goes through them.

Isn't that like saying you only notice a hooker who isn't very good at throwing in because he does it often or you only notice a fullback who is rubbish under the high ball because he has to catch so many high balls. It's not really an excuse.

[Banquo]

Where to be is easy if you don't mind them chasing the ball. Bit trickier if you want them reading the play. Zinging out 40-80 accurate, and generally long passes, off both hands, is also not that simple, that's probably more passes than some outside backs manage in a season, even a 5% poor pass rate will show up in a game. Running too often is bad, too little is bad, getting the balance right is tough, and variable, generally your vision can often be limited by a forwards fat arse. Box kicking tends to also be done under a lot of pressure, and although I have no experience of it, just looking at the technique, it would look to be much harder to control accuracy in comparison to a regular kicking style.

Its a hard position, but none of the above is impossible.

Of course, not, there's 9s out there that manage it, but Smith's kicking can still be pressured into errors (a few years ago serious pressure would lead to him completely losing it), and every 9 can have bad days. It's a tough position to get everything right, especially as so many of their "basic" skills are repeated far more than most players, if a 13 gave 1 poor pass every 3 or 4 games, people wouldn't worry too much (not great, but still), but that would be 5 or 6 for a scrum half, every game. Their error rates simply have to be a lot lower than everyone elses due to how much the ball goes through them.

I'm not sure what point you are making tbh.

[Digby]

Ah passing issues at 9. I used to throw a few dodgy passes at 9, and whilst some of those were because the 10 annoyed me a lot were down to mistakes in execution and/or being tired. And it's not like any 9s around are getting this area right 100% of the time.

Seems too a nice chance to revisit another old chestnut on what delivers fast ball to the outside backs, and what the spacings are in the backs and especially the gap from 9 to 10. I'd also look at some of out lineout options and exit plays and how that feeds into passing issues we see at 9.

[Banquo]

Ah passing issues at 9. I used to throw a few dodgy passes at 9, and whilst some of those were because the 10 annoyed me a lot were down to mistakes in execution and/or being tired. And it's not like any 9s around are getting this area right 100% of the time.

Seems too a nice chance to revisit another old chestnut on what delivers fast ball to the outside backs, and what the spacings are in the backs and especially the gap from 9 to 10. I'd also look at some of out lineout options and exit plays and how that feeds into passing issues we see at 9.

most 10's stand too far away, both depth and width. One of the finest bits of coaching stuff written, that's still valid years and years on, is Jim Greenwood's chapter on getting the 9 and 10 to work together.....

It is however, also in the 9's 'gift' to suggest the 10 be more 'sympathetic'.

[Banquo]

This debate answers the OP original question- we are discussing the trade off between a having a passing or running and/or kicking 9....when all three are vital scrum half skills, overlaid with top class decision making.

Agreed. IMO, if a SH has natural hands and a rugby brain, his default action is to zip out a flat, accurate pass to the FH (are we really discussing anything so obvious), say, 9 times out of 10. Simply by doing that he makes running the ball more of a surprise and far more likely to be damaging. The debate may come about how often he should kick. I have a prejudice against any blind kicking (which box kicks often are), mainly because the success rate is so low - maybe 80%+ just gift possession to the opposition? That is not to say that kicking is not an essential SH skill. I just question in what circumstances and how often.

Tell me, Banquo, as a coach, do you find getting the basics into a young SH harder than for other back positions? I'd have thought the requirements were easier in some ways - in that it's easier for the lad to know where to be. Beyond the elementary, though?

SH needs to be able to do all the basics other players/backs need, but there are also some definite mandatory specialist skills that are (almost) unique; that necessitates some quality individual and mini unit coaching, and mini game work on decision making....plus a lot of work in the individuals own time/with other 9's and 10's. At the top level, the time and resources are there, such that it shouldn't be an excuse.

As I think Raggs is saying, the demands on a 9 are likely higher than any other player in terms of continuous motion, continuous decision making, and repetition of challenging skills under pressure; multi-phase rugby has seen to that. I also think that decision making in 9's, which should be at a premium in the modern games, isn't especially well developed....with the default for too many being to slow the play down, which is also a symptom of not have the skill to clear the ball away quickly- so you may not quite be clear which you are seeing unless you work with the player a lot. For example, I think Ben Youngs takes two steps sideways going left to right, because he lacks dexterity and has a weak pass that way- others call that holding the defence, and its possible he has made a virtue out of a necessity; whatever it is, it needs a very patient and 'acclimitised' 10 to work well with it.

Edit- I do like a pass, run, kick mindset....but you have to adapt obviously. The key part is to have the ability to execute the choice you make; and not every 9 will be a gifted or physical runner (doesnt half help though!)

[Digby]

Greenwood's blurb on spacings down the line is still the standard, both setting out what the options are and how you might arrive at what works for your team.

And I wouldn't just look for sympathy from the 10 (or devil) I'd also not pair the wider pass being asked of Youngs with for instance front ball at the lineout, and England do pair those up for whatever reason

[Digby]

What's natural about firing out a flat accurate pass from 9? Partly that's actually a process which only relies partly on the 9, but even just the part which belongs to the 9 isn't natural, even for those with 'natural hands'

[Banquo]

Greenwood's blurb on spacings down the line is still the standard, both setting out what the options are and how you might arrive at what works for your team.

And I wouldn't just look for sympathy from the 10 (or devil) I'd also not pair the wider pass being asked of Youngs with for instance front ball at the lineout, and England do pair those up for whatever reason

On sympathy, 10's can definitely stand closer (though front line out ball off the top wouldn't be fun) and would find there is so much more space for the outside backs in doing so, and get the ball in their hands quicker; much more challenging for defences if you want width on your game.

[Banquo]

What's natural about firing out a flat accurate pass from 9? Partly that's actually a process which only relies partly on the 9, but even just the part which belongs to the 9 isn't natural, even for those with 'natural hands'

Not sure Dors actually meant or even wrote that; he said default action, which would need coaching.

[Peat]

Last time I did Youngs-watch, pretty much every time Ford got the ball he had sufficient time and space in which to work in.

I would also add that all this playing with the pack off of 9 and having 9 do all the kicking, that's clearly on Jones, and he's far from unique among coaches for asking for that.

[Banquo]

Last time I did Youngs-watch, pretty much every time Ford got the ball he had sufficient time and space in which to work in.

I would also add that all this playing with the pack off of 9 and having 9 do all the kicking, that's clearly on Jones, and he's far from unique among coaches for asking for that.

is that what he wanted though? Maybe he wanted to play flat and under pressure

[Which Tyler]

I've always felt that there's absolutely no excuse for 9s to practice their passing less than the kickers practice kicking at the sticks.
You kinda need a partner to practice, but basically all teams have 2 SHs, so that's a non-issue; and passing the ball is a skill that can be honed by simple practice; which needs to include throwing decent passes when absolutely knackered.

As an ex-SH, there's simply no excuse for a poor pass. They still happen of course, but every single one of them that isn't a result of excess pressure is an indication that you're not as good at your job as you should be. Everything else is secondary IMO.

Hell, even at my utter-shite level, I spent hours a week with a dozen balls, a laundry basket and a mannequin, just drilling the movements and with varying degrees of shoulder use.
There's no excuse for a bowler who can't hit the stumps, there's no excuse for a kicker who can't bisect the posts, no excuse for a squash player who can't knock it back along the wall, or a tennis player with a dodgy serve. You practice until it hurts, then keep going for another 40min.

[Banquo]

I've always felt that there's absolutely no excuse for 9s to practice their passing less than the kickers practice kicking at the sticks.
You kinda need a partner to practice, but basically all teams have 2 SHs, so that's a non-issue; and passing the ball is a skill that can be honed by simple practice; which needs to include throwing decent passes when absolutely knackered.

As an ex-SH, there's simply no excuse for a poor pass. They still happen of course, but every single one of them that isn't a result of excess pressure is an indication that you're not as good at your job as you should be. Everything else is secondary IMO.

Hell, even at my utter-shite level, I spent hours a week with a dozen balls, a laundry basket and a mannequin, just drilling the movements and with varying degrees of shoulder use.
There's no excuse for a bowler who can't hit the stumps, there's no excuse for a kicker who can't bisect the posts, no excuse for a squash player who can't knock it back along the wall, or a tennis player with a dodgy serve. You practice until it hurts, then keep going for another 40min.

yep, and preferably practice under pressure too!! That's easy to set up, as well.

(mind- balls, laundry basket and mannequin sounds like a bit of a fetish )

[Oakboy]

I've always felt that there's absolutely no excuse for 9s to practice their passing less than the kickers practice kicking at the sticks.
You kinda need a partner to practice, but basically all teams have 2 SHs, so that's a non-issue; and passing the ball is a skill that can be honed by simple practice; which needs to include throwing decent passes when absolutely knackered.

As an ex-SH, there's simply no excuse for a poor pass. They still happen of course, but every single one of them that isn't a result of excess pressure is an indication that you're not as good at your job as you should be. Everything else is secondary IMO.

Hell, even at my utter-shite level, I spent hours a week with a dozen balls, a laundry basket and a mannequin, just drilling the movements and with varying degrees of shoulder use.
There's no excuse for a bowler who can't hit the stumps, there's no excuse for a kicker who can't bisect the posts, no excuse for a squash player who can't knock it back along the wall, or a tennis player with a dodgy serve. You practice until it hurts, then keep going for another 40min.

yep, and preferably practice under pressure too!! That's easy to set up, as well.

(mind- balls, laundry basket and mannequin sounds like a bit of a fetish )

A bit like the gym store scene in Porky's, you mean? They don't make films like that any more.

[Which Tyler]

yep, and preferably practice under pressure too!! That's easy to set up, as well.

(mind- balls, laundry basket and mannequin sounds like a bit of a fetish )

1. needs more people; I'm generally talking about more-or-less solo training after everyone else put the kicker has buggered off. My FH and I were kinda competing to see who could keep going the longest after the pain kicked in - and who could give himself the more awkward angles / distances.

2. you forgot the hurting aspect

[Banquo]

yep, and preferably practice under pressure too!! That's easy to set up, as well.

(mind- balls, laundry basket and mannequin sounds like a bit of a fetish )

1. needs more people; I'm generally talking about more-or-less solo training after everyone else put the kicker has buggered off. My FH and I were kinda competing to see who could keep going the longest after the pain kicked in - and who could give himself the more awkward angles / distances.

2. you forgot the hurting aspect

1- I used to get the halves (9's and 10's) going away and working; work on the spacing etc, and oppo 9 putting passing 9 under pressure etc. AND working individually separately.

Prob told this story before, but we had 4 kiwis come to my club for a season (one was Simon Culhane), and they'd run together to training (c 3 miles) passing a ball the whole way; they'd arrive 30 mins early and do mini practices and skills, then all stay 30 mins after training and work on positional specific skills. Then run home. Proper eye opener, thought it shouldn't be.

[twitchy]

I don't have any thing interesting to add but this has been a good thread to read.

[Mellsblue]

yep, and preferably practice under pressure too!! That's easy to set up, as well.

(mind- balls, laundry basket and mannequin sounds like a bit of a fetish )

1. needs more people; I'm generally talking about more-or-less solo training after everyone else put the kicker has buggered off. My FH and I were kinda competing to see who could keep going the longest after the pain kicked in - and who could give himself the more awkward angles / distances.

2. you forgot the hurting aspect

1- I used to get the halves (9's and 10's) going away and working; work on the spacing etc, and oppo 9 putting passing 9 under pressure etc. AND working individually separately.

Prob told this story before, but we had 4 kiwis come to my club for a season (one was Simon Culhane), and they'd run together to training (c 3 miles) passing a ball the whole way; they'd arrive 30 mins early and do mini practices and skills, then all stay 30 mins after training and work on positional specific skills. Then run home. Proper eye opener, thought it shouldn't be.

Kudos to them. Running the 3 miles home after 5/6 pints must be hard work.

[Banquo]

1. needs more people; I'm generally talking about more-or-less solo training after everyone else put the kicker has buggered off. My FH and I were kinda competing to see who could keep going the longest after the pain kicked in - and who could give himself the more awkward angles / distances.

2. you forgot the hurting aspect

1- I used to get the halves (9's and 10's) going away and working; work on the spacing etc, and oppo 9 putting passing 9 under pressure etc. AND working individually separately.

Prob told this story before, but we had 4 kiwis come to my club for a season (one was Simon Culhane), and they'd run together to training (c 3 miles) passing a ball the whole way; they'd arrive 30 mins early and do mini practices and skills, then all stay 30 mins after training and work on positional specific skills. Then run home. Proper eye opener, thought it shouldn't be.

Kudos to them. Running the 3 miles home after 5/6 pints must be hard work.

guess what? They didn't drink during the week either!!

Us british lads, on the other hand....

[Which Tyler]

Edit- I do like a pass, run, kick mindset....but you have to adapt obviously. The key part is to have the ability to execute the choice you make; and not every 9 will be a gifted or physical runner (doesnt half help though!)

Sorry, I'd managed to miss this edit.

As a scrum half I always went with the thought process that I'd rather make the wrong decision decisively than the right decision too late. If I am there, and the ball is available then the ball should be moving; and it only got kicked if there was basically no-one else onside.
I was also pass >> run > kick in my preference, probably in large part because that suited what I shall generously call my "skill set", and helped that my usual IC was a perfectly capable FH, so there was basically always someone competent ready to receive my pass.

[Banquo]

Edit- I do like a pass, run, kick mindset....but you have to adapt obviously. The key part is to have the ability to execute the choice you make; and not every 9 will be a gifted or physical runner (doesnt half help though!)

Sorry, I'd managed to miss this edit.

As a scrum half I always went with the thought process that I'd rather make the wrong decision decisively than the right decision too late. If I am there, and the ball is available then the ball should be moving; and it only got kicked if there was basically no-one else onside.
I was also pass >> run > kick in my preference, probably in large part because that suited what I shall generously call my "skill set", and helped that my usual IC was a perfectly capable FH, so there was basically always someone competent ready to receive my pass.

Yeah, I was only expressing what I'd like from a 9 in terms of mindset.

[Oakboy]

So, go around the subject as much as we like and we are still left with Youngs and Care, neither of whom set the world on fire. We don't have a better 7 than Robshaw or Haskell to steal ball in the first place. We have Youngs or Care to provide a mediocre service. Then we have some combination (probably 2 from 3) of Ford/Farrell/T'eo. Beyond that bunch there are grounds for optimism with Joseph/Watson/Daly. Eddie is stuck with making the best of it.

I'd still pick Simpson, Cipriani and Slade, even if it was just for the first AI. I'm allowed to dream.

[Puja]

So, go around the subject as much as we like and we are still left with Youngs and Care, neither of whom set the world on fire. We don't have a better 7 than Robshaw or Haskell to steal ball in the first place. We have Youngs or Care to provide a mediocre service. Then we have some combination (probably 2 from 3) of Ford/Farrell/T'eo. Beyond that bunch there are grounds for optimism with Joseph/Watson/Daly. Eddie is stuck with making the best of it.

I'd still pick Simpson, Cipriani and Slade, even if it was just for the first AI. I'm allowed to dream.

I get why you might wish that things were different. I don't get what your solution is going to solve about the issue of a 9 with an iffy pass, a 10 that can blow hot and cold, and a 12 that's out of position and looks uncomfortable.

Okay, I'll give you the 12, but the other two - do they really solve our problems or do they just bring new and exciting issues to the table?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

A combination of Simpson, Cipriani and Slade could be great, but would more than likely be terrible. All three are inconsistent so the chances of all of them being in top form in the same game is slim ...

We can afford one maverick, possibly even two if we're in the mood, but three together at 9, 10 and 12 will never happen.

Since this is about 9s, why Simpson anyway? He's probably the fastest and at his best he can be very good, but I've never thought of him as better than Youngs or Care, nor would I consider him to be better than Robson.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm curious how the worst anyone's ever seen of Slade compares to the (fairly frequent) poor version of Farrell. He's a maverick already after two starts?