Team -vs- Ireland

[Graigwen]

At least we can't delude ourselves we were unlucky.

.

[Graigwen]

Somebody please remind me what Rowlands does better than Ball?

[Wallpaperman]

Somebody please remind me what Rowlands does better than Ball?

He gets up in the lineout, but he knocked one of them back over his own line. The counter ruck at the start of the second half was very good

[Sandydragon]

Wow, that was shit.

Scrum and lineout both dire. Looks like we sacked the wrong coach.

Breakdown resulted in slow ball or penalties against too often. And conceding 17 penalties is no way to play a match.

Our forwards lack shape and whilst Lloyd Williams added some speed of service, how close did we looking to troubling the Irish defence in that set where we had about 15 phases in a row. They looked fairly comfortable. No inventiveness very little of anything.

When the first lockdown was on I was really missing rugby, but the way we have returned following the long break is making me wish for the summer again. In the six nations we lost three games on the bounce before the break but they were fairly close for the most part and we looked competitive. I was expecting some friction and a new team took over. But this falls far below even my worst fears.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The third quarter was decent, but the score was still only 3-3, due to Halfpenny (who otherwise had a good game) missing a couple.

Other than than we were soundly beaten by the better side. Lucky to only be 10 points down at half time. Set piece was dreadful, particularly in the first half. Perhaps Carre needs to go back to scrum school.

Things looked okay at 60 minutes, like the plan was finally working, but no, we fell away again (or did Ireland just step it up?) and ended as we had begun, distinctly second best.

I think the only moment we showed inventiveness was that inside pass from JD to Adams. And then JD had to come off. It would have been good to have seen more of Sheedy (hey, well at least we've capped him now) but doubt that it would have made any difference.

Our lack of inventiveness in attack is nothing new, of course. It's extremely familiar from the previous 11 years. But add set piece and breakdown shakiness and you get this kind of scoreline.

Glad it's only Georgia next week. We don't need another kicking in succession. They can get a bit more practice at, er, whatever it is they're trying to do.

[Sandydragon]

I’d love to say that I am confident about playing Georgia.

[Wallpaperman]

I’d love to say that I am confident about playing Georgia.

They have been awful so far this Autumn. Pre-lockdown they at least looked dangerous. They were beaten up in Dublin and at Twickenham, but they scored tries. And it’s not as if they are easy places to go. It also looked as though some of the problems in those games were temporary, or fixable. In Dublin Nick Tompkins and Tomos Williams were found wanting in defence, but they are players worth persevering with. The scrum went badly, but I always thought that it would improve with the return of players like Tomos Francis and Samson Lee. It was a shame that we didn’t get a look at Willgriff John when the game v Scotland was called off. I was cautiously optimistic at that point.

Pivac would clearly like to pick mobile props as part of his game plan but has hopefully now realised that props have to be able to scrummage. Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Rhys Carre can all have lengthy international careers, and may well feature at the 2023 and 2027 world cups, but I don’t see them as starting props for Wales at present against the big teams. I am sure that everyone wishes them well, and I really felt for Carre last night when he was subbed a minute before half time. I will say he was unlucky at the scrum before Ireland’s first try, Wales did really well and the Irish scrum half seemed to get away with holding on to the ball for a long time. A penalty to Wales then would have ben a real morale booster, instead it was a try to Ireland.

Similarly, Elias has to work on his lineout throwing which hasn’t gone well in any of the Autumn games. Ken Owens seems twice the player in his absence.

The set piece has to be the starting point for Wales. There are lots of other issues, but for me the scrum and lineout have to be fixed first. Wales’ defence against Scotland and Ireland was better than against France, but then again (no disrespect to Scotland or Ireland) they don’t pose as many threats as France. There were some better signs in attack last night than in the dire performance against Scotland, hopefully that is a work in progress. Some good players in the Welsh backline aren’t going well at present, including Davies, Biggar and the centre pairing, but they had a lot less ball than their opponents.

One plus of the Autumn is that we are getting a look at some new players. Rowlands has been good in patches and is in my view worth his starting spot but he has dropped a couple of real clangers, he fell over Francis against Scotland and conceded a sealing off penalty when Wales looked like scoring, and he tapped the ball over the Welsh tryline last night - very lucky not to concede a soft try. Shane Lewis Hughes has gone pretty well in both of his matches. Tompkins was on a bit of a hiding to nothing against the French centres but he showed enough in the six nations to keep in the squad. Sheedy has been capped, and we should see more of him in the Autumn, and I am looking forward to seeing how Jonny Williams goes.

We also have some quality players to come back into the side. Navidi and Moriarty are sorely missed at present, and (I keep saying it) I would love to see Ellis Jenkins and Gareth Anscombe back.

Sorry for such a long post - I only meant to write a paragraph ! I’ll finish by mentioning that I texted my brother after about 78 minutes when Ireland nearly scored, saying that I was ashamed to being reduced to being happy that at least James Lowe hadn’t scored. Obviously he did about a minute later. It never rains.

[Scrumhead]

How much of Wales’ malaise is down to Pivac vs. Father Time catching up with a number of key players?

I appreciate it’s easy to say from an outsiders POV, but this was always going to be a tough transition. Gatland had the ability to make a decent group of players with a few stars play at a level greater than the sum of their parts, but it feels to me that he wrung the last drops out of that squad at the RWC.

Pivac lacks Gatland’s experience and ability to motivate the players in the same way and losing Edwards was in retrospect, a hammer blow. It was always obvious that Edwards was a massive contributor to Wales’ success, but France’s recent rise and Wales’ decline across the same period suggests that he may have had an even bigger influence than imagined.

From a playing POV, Pivac is picking up on a squad where the likes of AWJ, Davies and North are not the players they were. They need phasing out, but the players to succeed them are nowhere near the same level of ability/influence. He’s also unlucky that Owens, Navidi (who is always excellent for Wales) and Moriarty are injured.

Pivac is definitely being exposed, but I think it would have been a very tall order for anyone replacing Gatland in these circumstances. Let’s say he was let go, who comes in to replace him?

I say give him time and a proper mandate to completely change the team. That will undoubtedly bring short term pain, but you’re better off blooding the next generation now to give them enough experience to be competitive in 2023.

I’d give Sheedy, Tompkins and Rees-Zammit starts against Georgia, move Williams to fullback and let them go for it. Even if it is ‘only Georgia’ a convincing victory and good attacking could be the motivation boost needed.

[Puja]

How much of Wales’ malaise is down to Pivac vs. Father Time catching up with a number of key players?

I appreciate it’s easy to say from an outsiders POV, but this was always going to be a tough transition. Gatland had the ability to make a decent group of players with a few stars play at a level greater than the sum of their parts, but it feels to me that he wrung the last drops out of that squad at the RWC.

Pivac lacks Gatland’s experience and ability to motivate the players in the same way and losing Edwards was in retrospect, a hammer blow. It was always obvious that Edwards was a massive contributor to Wales’ success, but France’s recent rise and Wales’ decline across the same period suggests that he may have had an even bigger influence than imagined.

From a playing POV, Pivac is picking up on a squad where the likes of AWJ, Davies and North are not the players they were. They need phasing out, but the players to succeed them are nowhere near the same level of ability/influence. He’s also unlucky that Owens, Navidi (who is always excellent for Wales) and Moriarty are injured.

Pivac is definitely being exposed, but I think it would have been a very tall order for anyone replacing Gatland in these circumstances. Let’s say he was let go, who comes in to replace him?

I say give him time and a proper mandate to completely change the team. That will undoubtedly bring short term pain, but you’re better off blooding the next generation now to give them enough experience to be competitive in 2023.

I’d give Sheedy, Tompkins and Rees-Zammit starts against Georgia, move Williams to fullback and let them go for it. Even if it is ‘only Georgia’ a convincing victory and good attacking could be the motivation boost needed.

From another outside perspective, I absolutely agree. In terms of personnel, you've been hit hard by retirements, injuries, father time and loss of form and there's only so much a coach can do if he's got a limited quality of players.

Give him time to rebuild, if for no other reason than I don't know who else of quality you could reasonably expect to get if you ditched him.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Gatland is a tough act to follow. He really did get the best out of the players. The RWC effort took the side as far as it could go, rather like England in 2003.
The transition isnt helped by a few injuries and the indifferent form of a few players, plus the inescapable fact that a number in that side last night are definitely past their best.
Short term, i dont expect the results to improve much.

[Digby]

I'd have more sympathy with Pivac if he wasn't picking Halfpenny at 15. Granted Halfpenny is doing what he does pretty well and actually has improved on 2-3 seasons back vis a vis his attack. But the pack can't win set piece ball, they lack discipline, the 9 can't kick to compete, the midfield can't pass and still he sticks Williams on the wing as though Wales can possibly get him into the game from there.

Wales need some Hail Mary plays to win right now, and they're not even giving themselves that chance.

Fwiw I thought Faletau went okay, the sub at 9 increased pace for a short while, and taking off Carre which I'd normally disagree with was I thought pretty smart given the yellow card warning he was on and that not being a time to concede, and I do think the risk of the yellow makes it an easier conversation to have with the player being taken off being on that warning.

Ideally you'd have upgrades at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15 based on last night, but that's unlikely. That being the case it is still a honeymoon of sorts, so try to play at some faster pace and be a better watch, you'd get more leeway than trying to be safe(r) and still comfortably losing.

[Sandydragon]

When North came on as a sub, he looked more involved in those 20
Minutes or so than he has for a long time. I wonder if impact sub suits him?

We have to start with sorting out the pack, no one can play well behind that.

I’d start with Wyn Jones, Parry and Francis, with Rowlands and Cory Hill. I’d rest AWJ for Georgia.

Faletau was much improved and unless Navidi or Moriarty is fit again then I’d keep the same BR. If Moriarty is back, then there is a difficult conversation to have at 8, although I’d be tempted to bring Moriarty off the bench rather than start.

Lloyd Williams at scrum half.

Patchell at fly half

I think Watkin is doing alright so keep him at 12 and bring back Tomkin. That has a decent balance to it and JD2 doesn’t look himself. Liam Williams at FB although he was off colour last night, LRZ on one wing and Adams on the other.

If we are going to try and play a wider game then pick the team to do it. I’d bring North on off the bench at 60 to run at tired players and see if he can get some of his mojo back.

[Buggaluggs]

If we were winning, I'd say keep the old guard and gradually introduce some younger players. But we're not. AS such I'd like to see a more sweeping transition to the next generation. In particular I think we should be moving away from backs who will be well in to their 30s by the next world cup.

[Scrumhead]

When North came on as a sub, he looked more involved in those 20
Minutes or so than he has for a long time. I wonder if impact sub suits him?

We have to start with sorting out the pack, no one can play well behind that.

I’d start with Wyn Jones, Parry and Francis, with Rowlands and Cory Hill. I’d rest AWJ for Georgia.

Faletau was much improved and unless Navidi or Moriarty is fit again then I’d keep the same BR. If Moriarty is back, then there is a difficult conversation to have at 8, although I’d be tempted to bring Moriarty off the bench rather than start.

Lloyd Williams at scrum half.

Patchell at fly half

I think Watkin is doing alright so keep him at 12 and bring back Tomkin. That has a decent balance to it and JD2 doesn’t look himself. Liam Williams at FB although he was off colour last night, LRZ on one wing and Adams on the other.

If we are going to try and play a wider game then pick the team to do it. I’d bring North on off the bench at 60 to run at tired players and see if he can get some of his mojo back.

Don’t forget North came on at 13 - that might have influenced how visible he was. He’s not looked very good when used at 13 before though, so it’s not a move I’d encourage.

Otherwise, I’m pretty much in agreement, although as I said earlier, I’d like to see Sheedy at 10. Patchell hasn’t ever really convinced at test level - might as well see if Sheedy can do better. He’s certainly been in the form to warrant a shot off the back of a Challenge Cup winning season and strong Premiership showing from Bristol.

Similarly, I think Parry is worth a start. Elias really hasn’t taken his chance and even if Parry isn’t quite as talented, his reliability at the set piece, carrying and jackalling skills should translate well to test rugby IMO. I know Dewi Lake has a lot of fans but at this stage it’s very much based on his showings at U20 level rather than anything he’s done so far at senior level. Carre looked dominant at U20s and looks anything but now.

Surely Georgia is as good a time as any to see if Wales can cope without AWJ. TBH, I’m not sure he’s adding too much right now anyway ...

[Sandydragon]

Aye North at 13 got him more in the game and with ball in hand he causes problems. Not so great in defence. Why we can’t get him off his wing more often is a matter of real confusion.

It’s too soon for Dewi Lake, WOL fandom notwithstanding.

Completely agree about transition. I think this is the end for AWJ, JD2, Owens for sure and this season should have been their send off. Maybe with one final hurrah with the Lions but that’s highly debatable unless the team improves during the six nations.

Liam, Halfpenny and Biggar have a few season left in them but we need replacements. FB is an issue I feel and having Halfoenny as goal kicker is useful for bedding in a new fly half.

Given how bad we have been, I’d almost suggest that we just look at the best team we can put out which should be available for the next RWC. The likes of Faletau, Tipuric and North can feasibly make it but anyone who is unlikely to should be replaced. At least if we continue to lose we can at least give younger players some experience.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Agreed that Pivac hasn't been dealt a great hand at the start. In addition to the injuries and aging players he's also seen Parkes disappear in pursuit of a retirement fund. And Gatland happened to finish on a high (rather than on one of his so-so seasons) which doesn't help Pivac look good.

Although I agree about transitioning - we should be getting new blood in - there are some reasons not to go too experimental. One is that without Edwards, and now without a defence coach at all, we are probably more reliant than we should be on the experience of our players, particularly JD2, to keep the structure of our defence.

Another is that it's not clear how much grace Pivac is going to be given to get things working (ie winning). Sure, this Autumn competition can totally be used to experiment IMO, but come the 6N I think Pivac will need to show clear signs of progress (also, the 6N is THE important event for Wales, if we don't perform for that, what is the point of any of it?).

So let's see some interesting selections in the next few matches. Clearly some changes would be welcome in the front 5, as has been said. I'd like to see Patchell take over from Biggar. I don't see what Biggar has to offer for Pivac's plan. I don't see the point in trying North in the centre unless we have no choice - it's way too late to convert him properly. Let's see Sheedy and LRZ play. Let's get Ollie Griffiths into the squad.

NB of course the most important thing is how Pivac sees it. Are the performances almost there? Are we almost clicking and we just need a little more time? Or is he as stumped as we are?

[Numbers]

I'd have more sympathy with Pivac if he wasn't picking Halfpenny at 15. Granted Halfpenny is doing what he does pretty well and actually has improved on 2-3 seasons back vis a vis his attack. But the pack can't win set piece ball, they lack discipline, the 9 can't kick to compete, the midfield can't pass and still he sticks Williams on the wing as though Wales can possibly get him into the game from there.

Wales need some Hail Mary plays to win right now, and they're not even giving themselves that chance.

Fwiw I thought Faletau went okay, the sub at 9 increased pace for a short while, and taking off Carre which I'd normally disagree with was I thought pretty smart given the yellow card warning he was on and that not being a time to concede, and I do think the risk of the yellow makes it an easier conversation to have with the player being taken off being on that warning.

Ideally you'd have upgrades at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15 based on last night, but that's unlikely. That being the case it is still a honeymoon of sorts, so try to play at some faster pace and be a better watch, you'd get more leeway than trying to be safe(r) and still comfortably losing.

Ideally we'd have a set piece that can provide some sort of ball for the backs to play with. Giving away 20 odd penalties is not going to win anyone a game.

[Numbers]

Agreed that Pivac hasn't been dealt a great hand at the start. In addition to the injuries and aging players he's also seen Parkes disappear in pursuit of a retirement fund. And Gatland happened to finish on a high (rather than on one of his so-so seasons) which doesn't help Pivac look good.

Although I agree about transitioning - we should be getting new blood in - there are some reasons not to go too experimental. One is that without Edwards, and now without a defence coach at all, we are probably more reliant than we should be on the experience of our players, particularly JD2, to keep the structure of our defence.

Another is that it's not clear how much grace Pivac is going to be given to get things working (ie winning). Sure, this Autumn competition can totally be used to experiment IMO, but come the 6N I think Pivac will need to show clear signs of progress (also, the 6N is THE important event for Wales, if we don't perform for that, what is the point of any of it?).

So let's see some interesting selections in the next few matches. Clearly some changes would be welcome in the front 5, as has been said. I'd like to see Patchell take over from Biggar. I don't see what Biggar has to offer for Pivac's plan. I don't see the point in trying North in the centre unless we have no choice - it's way too late to convert him properly. Let's see Sheedy and LRZ play. Let's get Ollie Griffiths into the squad.

NB of course the most important thing is how Pivac sees it. Are the performances almost there? Are we almost clicking and we just need a little more time? Or is he as stumped as we are?

Until we can sort out the set piece issues we are not going to see Pivac's style, if the senior players are having an impact on the defence then it's up to them to bring through the younger players, Tompkins should be mentored by JD for instance, unfortunately I don't see any 13s coming through the system at the moment, perhaps a change for Owen Lane or Hallam Amos?