RugbyRebels

Every player with half a chance of touring needs a big game on Friday. The view is that in high pressure games they aren't good enough, well the French should be well up for this and we need to step up.

Big D wrote:Every player with half a chance of touring needs a big game on Friday. The view is that in high pressure games they aren't good enough, well the French should be well up for this and we need to step up.

Yup, this

Big D wrote:Every player with half a chance of touring needs a big game on Friday. The view is that in high pressure games they aren't good enough, well the French should be well up for this and we need to step up.

I agree.

I do wonder about the perception though when applied to individual players or when compared to others in the 6N. We have overcome the issue that apparently was the reason that meant we didn't have any tourists last time - our inability to win away - by winning our last three away 6N games, but now it is a general high pressure thing.

Let's look at Sutherland as an example. Big part of team that overcame hoodoo away to Wales with a forward dominated win. Ditto against England. Helped us get back into the game against Wales despite falling behind with 14 men. Helped us come back from 14 points down against Ireland only for us (not him) to give a penalty away off a kickoff. You could say, while the results have been frustrating, the tournament has proved he has resilience and the ability not to panic under adversity.

In comparison:

- England collapsed when under pressure against Scotland, Wales and Ireland. They weren't just outplayed, they completely lost their heads. That won't count against Farrell and Itoje let alone less culpable players.

- Wales may win the title but completely lost their discipline when it really mattered on Saturday. Will L Williams' stupid penalty and yellow card count against him. Even in their wins, they were a hairs' breadth away from screwing up against 14 man Ireland and 14 man Scotland.

- Ireland are arguably were the best mentally but screwed up their chance to beat Wales in the final minute (quite apart from Mr Mentality screwing up in the first place by getting sent off). They also let Scotland right back into it when cruising 14 points up.

Some players perform better than others under pressure, others just play for winning teams.

As an e.g., did SHC suddenly stop being flakey Sam on moving to Exeter and start being the cool kind of player who wins turnover penalties in key moments in finals.

Fuck Sutherland looks bad

Just generally?

Fuck it, the bandwagon is steaming down this hill. Hogg is my Lions captain.

yeah Hoggy for captain

Fuck old man Jones

What chance does Cherry have as a bolter??

stevedog1980 wrote:What chance does Cherry have as a bolter??

Weirdly quite high

Hasnt had a bad game like Turner
Isnt named after a fish
Didnt finish 5th

stevedog1980 wrote:What chance does Cherry have as a bolter??

I'd say none. He has had a couple of solid showings but we'll down the pecking order I think.

Mikey Brown wrote:Just generally?

No, looked like a dislocation which would probably rule him out

Big D wrote:

stevedog1980 wrote:What chance does Cherry have as a bolter??

I'd say none. He has had a couple of solid showings but we'll down the pecking order I think.

I don’t know. None of the established hookers have had a vintage tournament really. Cherry has made heaps of tackles, loads of metres carrying the ball, barely missed a lineout and has a Duhan-esque try scoring rate!!

Big D wrote:

stevedog1980 wrote:What chance does Cherry have as a bolter??

I'd say none. He has had a couple of solid showings but we'll down the pecking order I think.

agree

That said nothing would please me more and see his fairytale journey complete. I might even take an interest in the Lions

Lest just remember Cherry has been consistently behind Willemse for Edinburgh. That's rewarding performance. Not.
Willemse who is a true penalty magnet and throwing couldn't hit the side of a barn if he was standing inside it.
And folk wonder why some of us think Cockerill has run his course

Right, come on then. Predictions, how many Scots on tour?

I'm going 5 in the original party.

7
Sutherland
Watson
Russel
Harris
Hogg
DVDM
Richie/Gray

Possible bolter s
Dave Cherry
Cammy Redpath

we'll get 5 or 6 in the Japan warm up when some Eng players won't be available. Probably 3 in the main party, of whom only Hogg is a likely starter.

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. Sooner this nonsense is scrapped the better

2 - Hogg and DVDM. Gatland will talk a lot about the Wales game when asked to justify picking his old favourites and ignoring the first 55 minutes.

Do we actually have any idea how big the squad is? Presumably much smaller than previous tours. I can see the arguments for any of those 7 but I reckon closer to 2. Is it confirmed that Townsend is involved?

We'll have 2 maybe 3. Hogg and one or two others.

Like Septic I'd happily see it scrapped.

Mikey Brown wrote:Do we actually have any idea how big the squad is? Presumably much smaller than previous tours. I can see the arguments for any of those 7 but I reckon closer to 2. Is it confirmed that Townsend is involved?

Squad of 36 according to reports a few days ago.

Chunks Baws wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Do we actually have any idea how big the squad is? Presumably much smaller than previous tours. I can see the arguments for any of those 7 but I reckon closer to 2. Is it confirmed that Townsend is involved?

Squad of 36 according to reports a few days ago.

I dont want to be optimistic but the idea that a team that beat England and France away and just lost the other two by a combined total of 4 only deserves 2 lions is mental.

realistically if it was 36 then i think your looking at

7 scots (see above)
7 irish (Furlong, Ryan, Henderson, Henshaw, Murray, Sexton, Bierne)
9 welsh (Wyn Jones, Owens, AWJ, Tipuric, Faletua, JD, North, Zammit, Williams)
4 english (Itoje, Curry, A Watson, Farrell)

are prob nailed on then there is still 9 spaces to fill and I still think Scotland could squeak a couple more from it

whatisthejava wrote:

Chunks Baws wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Do we actually have any idea how big the squad is? Presumably much smaller than previous tours. I can see the arguments for any of those 7 but I reckon closer to 2. Is it confirmed that Townsend is involved?

Squad of 36 according to reports a few days ago.

I dont want to be optimistic but the idea that a team that beat England and France away and just lost the other two by a combined total of 4 only deserves 2 lions is mental.

realistically if it was 36 then i think your looking at

7 scots (see above)
7 irish (Furlong, Ryan, Henderson, Henshaw, Murray, Sexton, Bierne)
9 welsh (Wyn Jones, Owens, AWJ, Tipuric, Faletua, JD, North, Zammit, Williams)
4 english (Itoje, Curry, A Watson, Farrell)

are prob nailed on then there is still 9 spaces to fill and I still think Scotland could squeak a couple more from it

Deserve and what we expect Gatland to do are two very different things.

Also the English front row are going, as are Welsh halfbacks

switchskier wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:

Chunks Baws wrote:
Squad of 36 according to reports a few days ago.

I dont want to be optimistic but the idea that a team that beat England and France away and just lost the other two by a combined total of 4 only deserves 2 lions is mental.

realistically if it was 36 then i think your looking at

7 scots (see above)
7 irish (Furlong, Ryan, Henderson, Henshaw, Murray, Sexton, Bierne)
9 welsh (Wyn Jones, Owens, AWJ, Tipuric, Faletua, JD, North, Zammit, Williams)
4 english (Itoje, Curry, A Watson, Farrell)

are prob nailed on then there is still 9 spaces to fill and I still think Scotland could squeak a couple more from it

Deserve and what we expect Gatland to do are two very different things.

Also the English front row are going, as are Welsh halfbacks

Yep, WITJ’s breakdown makes more sense with those numbers, I just don’t expect Gatland to view it the same way and 6 nations form will mean absolutely nothing for players like Vunipola, George etc. who were test starters previously.

My sense is players like that only need 1 big game to tour, whereas most Scots only need 1 poorer game to drop out of the squad.

switchskier wrote: Deserve and what we expect Gatland to do are two very different things.

Also the English front row are going, as are Welsh halfbacks

Im just not conviced, I remember a really strong feeling that Gatland backs his coaches, and after getting pumped by SA in the RWC and everyone in the 6N I think England will really come off worse.

Partly because the amount of shit he will get if he picks the english players on mass after that 6N and loses the lions tour will crash his legacy

whatisthejava wrote:

switchskier wrote: Deserve and what we expect Gatland to do are two very different things.

Also the English front row are going, as are Welsh halfbacks

Im just not conviced, I remember a really strong feeling that Gatland backs his coaches, and after getting pumped by SA in the RWC and everyone in the 6N I think England will really come off worse.

Partly because the amount of shit he will get if he picks the english players on mass after that 6N and loses the lions tour will crash his legacy

I am sure in his book he speaks about selection disagreements and he doesn't always go his way on it. Been a while since I read it.

Some of the England front row will go. One, two, or none of the Welsh 9s might go as it just isn't a strong position in the B+I isles.

The English players are so hard to read for the Lions selection, how much is it the players that are at fault and how much is it the game plan and selection of a couple of players? There are some who definitely shouldn't go such as the Vunipolas.

I would honestly take Simmonds for example. He stands out in the biggest club games, many of which are higher intensity than international rugby.