NZ matchday squads

[Son of Mathonwy]

Blooding some young players, Dyer’s try, Ken Owens and Talupe showed up well. Very disappointing otherwise, defensively desperate and when in our 22 they seemed to slowly march to our line with an horrible inevitably. We offer little in attack, in contrast when we had lineouts in their 22 we’d get marched backwards. Our traditional cold start hopefully.

Our centres showed up, particularly Tompkins. Tomos was good. Tips too.

But we lost the collisions. Oh boy did we lose the collisions. And sometimes simply let them through.

[pompey-zebra]

Our centres showed up, particularly Tompkins. Tomos was good. Tips too.

But we lost the collisions. Oh boy did we lose the collisions. And sometimes simply let them through.

It did look like wales were shocked on times at the pace and power that NZ showed.
There were some good individual performances but the gap between the 40 minutes we were competitive and the 40 minutes we weren't was huge.

[UKHamlet]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but WHY THE FUCK DO WE ALWAYS GET THE HARD ONES FIRST?

[Sandydragon]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but WHY THE FUCK DO WE ALWAYS GET THE HARD ONES FIRST?

That is a genuine mystery

[Sandydragon]

Our centres showed up, particularly Tompkins. Tomos was good. Tips too.

But we lost the collisions. Oh boy did we lose the collisions. And sometimes simply let them through.

It did look like wales were shocked on times at the pace and power that NZ showed.
There were some good individual performances but the gap between the 40 minutes we were competitive and the 40 minutes we weren't was huge.

So what is our USP? The e ABs are powerful and skilful with great rugby intelligence. South Africa are all about size and brute power. Most teams have something which is their main characteristic. What’s ours?

Skilful. Not really.

Fitter than everyone else. Not any more.

Defensively strong. Not so much these days.

Attacking flair. Well we do score more tries than we used to but it’s hardly astounding with ball in hand.

Where do we genuinely have an edge? Our style of play seems to vary so does anyone know what it is that we can do well?

Do we even know what our best team is?

[MrK]

The balance in the pack is apalling

Firstly we only had 2 maybe 3 carries yesterday, which makes it very easy to defend
Secondly, we didnt have the right mix of forwards that make a positive contribution to rucks

What that ends up with is a very predictable forward offense, also 2 7s doesnt work against top sides

Now, Im not saying I wouldnt have picked Reffel yesterday, his form for Leicester and his performances against SA gave him credit in the bank, but I wouldnt have played him with Tipuric

We have players that are suited to playing SA - Lydiate of course, Beard with his maul defence - but those two offer little against the other top sides

We do have ball carriers Lake and Brown are injured but he could have picked Carre, Seb D (on recent form), Moriaty, Wainwright, Youngs, Morris even
We do have forwards that consistently make positive ruck contributions Botham. Moriaty, Tshiunza for example

Only 1 of those is in the squad Tshiunza

The blame lies with Pivac

His dogma is faulty and his stubborness to adapt or admit hes wrong will be his downfall

[Son of Mathonwy]

Our centres showed up, particularly Tompkins. Tomos was good. Tips too.

But we lost the collisions. Oh boy did we lose the collisions. And sometimes simply let them through.

It did look like wales were shocked on times at the pace and power that NZ showed.
There were some good individual performances but the gap between the 40 minutes we were competitive and the 40 minutes we weren't was huge.

So what is our USP? The e ABs are powerful and skilful with great rugby intelligence. South Africa are all about size and brute power. Most teams have something which is their main characteristic. What’s ours?

Skilful. Not really.

Fitter than everyone else. Not any more.

Defensively strong. Not so much these days.

Attacking flair. Well we do score more tries than we used to but it’s hardly astounding with ball in hand.

Where do we genuinely have an edge? Our style of play seems to vary so does anyone know what it is that we can do well?

Do we even know what our best team is?

We don't have a USP any more.

Under Gatland, at our best, with few injuries, we had:
The best defence.
Excellent goal kicking.
Very good fitness - best in the NH at least.
Average to poor attacking flair (less as the years went by).
Average scrum.
Poor lineout (better as the years went by).
Poor carrying ability.

Now, it's less consistent but something like this:
Good defence.
Excellent goal kicking.
Good fitness.
Average attacking flair
Average scrum.
Average lineout.
Poor carrying ability.

(Obviously our defence was poor yesterday but typically it's still pretty strong).

Certainly no USP. I'm not sure what Pivac is aiming at here. What is his plan?

Clearly this week he needs to urgently shore up our defence. We scored enough points yesterday to win a match where our defence is rock solid . . . unfortunately it was jelly solid.

As for carrying, Pivac can't work miracles if our players carry poorly for the clubs. I think he could pick Christ at 6 though, to give us a chance (and Tips to 7). (But then our defence was sooo bad that he could easily, and justifiably, pick Lydiate).

[pompey-zebra]

Good points about the USP. I'm not clear on how pivac wants to play and who to pick to play it. Thing is, a year from the RWC, what can be done about it? I think we'll end up with a squad and style not unlike gatland's. And 3 years ago it looked like the natural end of that cycle.

[Sandydragon]

Other sides aren’t blessed it’s huge carriers but can still generate momentum. We look like an under powered side trying to out muscle other teams and wondering why it doesn’t work.

No doubt the loons will be blaming the URC, but since Ireland and South Africa are doing well it’s not the leagues fault. Clearly the regions must do better and Provac has a difficult job in that respect. But Gatland has periods of poor regional performance to deal with and managed to keep the national side consistent.

Privacs constant tampering with the team can’t have helped. But we seem to have a lack of ideas about how we stamp our authority on a game and win.

[Buggaluggs]

I'd be amused by England losing today had we not supped 50+ ourselves yesterday!

[pompey-zebra]

I'd be amused by England losing today had we not supped 50+ ourselves yesterday!

And the fact we've got Argentina next week!

[Son of Mathonwy]

Other sides aren’t blessed it’s huge carriers but can still generate momentum. We look like an under powered side trying to out muscle other teams and wondering why it doesn’t work.

No doubt the loons will be blaming the URC, but since Ireland and South Africa are doing well it’s not the leagues fault. Clearly the regions must do better and Provac has a difficult job in that respect. But Gatland has periods of poor regional performance to deal with and managed to keep the national side consistent.

Privacs constant tampering with the team can’t have helped. But we seem to have a lack of ideas about how we stamp our authority on a game and win.

Yeah, I don't understand why we seem so underpowered at carrying. If it was just a comparison with huge pacific islanders it might make sense but Ireland seem to be able to do it without any obvious physical advantage over us. I'd be fascinated to get the viewpoint of our experienced forwards on this point.

As for Gatland's consistency, while he was more consistent than Pivac, he generally followed a six nation win with a couple of years of 4th place finishes. And he was certainly consistent in losing to SH teams up until the end of his time with Wales (which happened to coincide with a drop in form for both Australia and SA). What he was most consistent at was beating Scotland, Italy and other lower ranked teams. By a long way, his best contribution was bringing Edwards to transform our defence.

Pivac has generally disappointed. We can't forget his 6N win and his SA win but otherwise we are still waiting for something resembling exciting game the Scarlets showed a few years back. Maybe without Tadhg Beirne the magic is lost?

[Son of Mathonwy]

I'd be amused by England losing today had we not supped 50+ ourselves yesterday!

And the fact we've got Argentina next week!

Cobwebs removed after the first game and carrying no new injuries we face a serious test and a direct comparison with England. No excuses.

[Sandydragon]

It’s not as if our players are physically smaller than other nations, such as Ireland. France and South Africa have jumbo packs but when you look at Basham carry, he is not lacking in ability to bust the gainline.

Some players can do that by being huge, others by good footwork.But it’s not easy to get fancy footwork in close carries as the carrying channel is quite small and unless there is a support runner tying up a tackler then it’s obvious what’s coming. Partly that’s a mentality issue, partly it’s about the strength of the leg drive and having support players close in.

You can train to smash the close carries. I do think for Welsh players is more about focusing on other areas. I also think that whatever we are doing in training players at regional level we need to do it better as our basic skills too often seem lacking l, and so too game management. Practising close carrying is a skill the same as any other.

[Sandydragon]

I'd be amused by England losing today had we not supped 50+ ourselves yesterday!

And the fact we've got Argentina next week!

Cobwebs removed after the first game and carrying no new injuries we face a serious test and a direct comparison with England. No excuses.

This feels like a make or break moment. Argentina are a good side and I’m not doing them down, particularly after beating England at home. But if we aren’t at the races again and lose comfortably, with most key players available, then serious questions must be asked. Privac has to get this selection right and we need a better balanced back row.

[Numbers]

Looking at the game in a more constructive manner there were several areas where we let ourselves down:

Restarts - We failed to secure ball and clear our lines time and again, poor but not a massive issue that can't be fixed with a bit more time together

Scrums - We were outmuscled here which was concerning as we had our best srummaging front row on the field

Breakdown - I'm not convinced by having two 7s on the flanks, with Lydiate on the field chop tackling we may have some chance to get near to the ball to turn it over, Reffell was always lurking but couldn't get near to the ball

Defence - Not sure why it took until the second half for us to realise putting in two man tackles might stop them getting as much go forward

Ftiness - I can't see us as being unfit, out fitness coach hasn't changed since the Gatland years

Carrying - This remains an area for concern, we don't really have much in the way of carriers, I'm not sure what the answer is to this, I'm not sure we have the personnel

Kicking to touch - This was very good, Priestland is the best we have for this

Place kicking - Excellent from Anscombe

Verdict - We really need to put out our most physical side if we hope to beat Argentina (does our captain fit this mould?)

Special mentions - Faletau, Owens and Rio Dyer, they impacted the game in a positive way

[MrK]

Verdict - We really need to put out our most physical side if we hope to beat Argentina (does our captain fit this mould?)

From the forward squad we have

S: Smith, Owens, Lewis, Rowlands, Tshiunza, Lydiate, Morgan, Faletau
B: Roberts, Thomas, Wainwright, Carter, MacLeod

What we will end up with

S: Thomas, Owens, France, Rowlands, AWJ, Lydiate, Tipuric, Faletau
B: Elias, Smith, Lewis, Beard, Tshiunza

[newgalesurf]

Same S**t, Different Day.

Just off the pace in the 2nd half. The Anscombe near-try had me screaming at the TV. He knew he would not make it. Look around for support

Dyer looked good, threequarters could be a great combo, back row balance way off, scrum was terrible, lineout shaky

Hopefully as said, this is the one slow start game and we are better going forward

[Son of Mathonwy]

Trying to find positives, yes it was a very poor scoreline in the end but 23 points is the 4th highest score we've ever had against NZ, bettered only in 2003, 2004 and 2010.

[Sourdust]

I have refused to watch Wal v NZ for years now, I can't recall the last time I put myself through it. It's like watching "Casablanca" once a year and still believing that Rick is going to get on the plane.

As asked above, WHY do we insist on playing them first? It's almost as if the union don't give a damn as long as the tickets sell, isn't it? If we went in fully loaded against Tonga or Japan first up, at least we'd have some chance of a bit of momentum, instead of constantly being in crisis mode by the second weekend of the autumn.

Although we arguably play too much international rugby, nonetheless there are still not enough games in a year to get away with any kind of slump; that's part of why it's always "boom or bust", one or two bad games and your season is shot. There's always an overreaction, e.g. this year's 6N; a bounce away from beating England, a gnat's fart short of beating France, and we'd never have lost to Italy if we hadn't needed the bonus point. We didn't play great stuff, sure, but if those throws land the other way no-one would care. Now there's more hair-tearing because we lost against NZ by maybe 10 points more than everyone expected. Which would be fine, except that all the great theories of revival will be forgotten if we sneak past the Argies on Saturday. It's bloody tiring, TBH.

[pompey-zebra]

The Fail's reporting that Reffell and Halfpenny both out for the Argentina game but Cuthbert and Adams back in contention. Not sure how effective adding two more players with little to no recent game time into the mix will be, but l guess they have to play sometime, and it might mean Anscombe and Priestland going back to the original plan before 1/2p got injured.

[Sandydragon]

As asked above, WHY do we insist on playing them first? It's almost as if the union don't give a damn as long as the tickets sell, isn't it? If we went in fully loaded against Tonga or Japan first up, at least we'd have some chance of a bit of momentum, instead of constantly being in crisis mode by the second weekend of the autumn.

This.

x 1000.

You're right. In the same way that winning the 6N a couple of years ago was by close margins, our crap performance this year was also by close margins. We could have beaten France. Should have beaten England and Italy would have been a different game if we were in chance of contention of the championship, not focusing on AWJ and Biggars achievements. We aren't as bad as we sometimes think, neither are we world beaters. Far from it.

And that AB team was a very different one to the one which narrowly beat Japan, and they are the SH champions at the moment, so far from shite.

The problem for me is that we looked so under cooked. Why, in comparison to Ireland who beat South Africa? Cant blame the URC for that. Can we blame the regions? TO an extent probably as they aren't performing to the top level. But equally why aren't the Welsh management getting the team properly ready (and the back row lacked balance which is totally on Privac).

When you put together last weekend's performance with the poor performance of the regions and the political horse shit that the WRU manages to get itself into then its hard not to be depressed.

[Sandydragon]

The Fail's reporting that Reffell and Halfpenny both out for the Argentina game but Cuthbert and Adams back in contention. Not sure how effective adding two more players with little to no recent game time into the mix will be, but l guess they have to play sometime, and it might mean Anscombe and Priestland going back to the original plan before 1/2p got injured.

I'd keep LRZ and Dyer and put Adams at FB. We need someone to push through there and if Privac isnt opting to pick OBRian then Adams seems the most likely candidate to back up Liam and possibly Halfpenny at the RWC. Gotta give it a go at some point?

Otherwise I think I'd keep the backline the same, but move Anscombe back to 10 with Preisltan on the bench (although I wouldn't be upset at vice versa there).

The pack needs some changes but out of the current squad I can't think of too many sensible changes to the back line. Cuthbert on the bench perhaps, although you need more of an all rounder so not sure about that.

[Numbers]

I'd quite like to see McLeod given a pop at 6 in the Argentina game, he's a big physical player, it has to be either him or Lydiate at 6 I reckon, Christ on the bench to come on for some more International experience later on, on a different note last week when we started two 10s why didn't we go for a 6/2 split on the bench?

[newgalesurf]

I'd quite like to see McLeod given a pop at 6 in the Argentina game, he's a big physical player, it has to be either him or Lydiate at 6 I reckon, Christ on the bench to come on for some more International experience later on, on a different note last week when we started two 10s why didn't we go for a 6/2 split on the bench?

Kinda getting your wish, but at 8.