RugbyRebels

Sooo. England are equals with the ABs, who thrashed us. And we just lost to Georgia. Deservedly. Preparations for the world cup mr Pivac?

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:54 pm I'm trying to think of a worse Welsh result than this. You have to really go back to the 2007 RWC loss to Fiji, or the 62-5 loss to England in the warm up match that year. The only mitigation is that it was a one point loss. But we should never lose to Georgia.

Italy this year. Western Samoa in the 1990s. Probably Romania in all fairness for a total disaster result.

Although shipping nearly a ton against the Bokke is a record that will take some beating

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:46 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:54 pm I'm trying to think of a worse Welsh result than this. You have to really go back to the 2007 RWC loss to Fiji, or the 62-5 loss to England in the warm up match that year. The only mitigation is that it was a one point loss. But we should never lose to Georgia.

Italy this year. Western Samoa in the 1990s. Probably Romania in all fairness for a total disaster result.

Although shipping nearly a ton against the Bokke is a record that will take some beating

I remember watching Wales lose to France 51-0 in Wembley and thinking they were playing a different sport to us. And that wasn't unusual then, the top teams were just so much better than Wales and hidings weren't uncommon.

This Georgia result feels different in that Georgia won by doing the basics very well and executing their plan as they'd prepared Neither of these should have been beyond Wales, but apparently it was.

I've been a paid-up member of the Give Pivac Time Club, but everything has its limits.

People quite rightly argue that changing the coaching team won't solve Wales' fundamental problems overnight, or indeed at all.

Giving a homeless person a sandwich doesn't solve all their problems either; but they still need the sandwich.

Sourdust wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:09 pm I've been a paid-up member of the Give Pivac Time Club, but everything has its limits.

People quite rightly argue that changing the coaching team won't solve Wales' fundamental problems overnight, or indeed at all.

Giving a homeless person a sandwich doesn't solve all their problems either; but they still need the sandwich.

The buggering about between the WRU and regions obviously isn’t helping. But clearly the players are unsure what they should be doing and lack the motivation to do it properly. That I lay at the e door of the coach.

Time for change starting with Privac.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:14 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:46 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:54 pm I'm trying to think of a worse Welsh result than this. You have to really go back to the 2007 RWC loss to Fiji, or the 62-5 loss to England in the warm up match that year. The only mitigation is that it was a one point loss. But we should never lose to Georgia.

Italy this year. Western Samoa in the 1990s. Probably Romania in all fairness for a total disaster result.

Although shipping nearly a ton against the Bokke is a record that will take some beating

I remember watching Wales lose to France 51-0 in Wembley and thinking they were playing a different sport to us. And that wasn't unusual then, the top teams were just so much better than Wales and hidings weren't uncommon.

This Georgia result feels different in that Georgia won by doing the basics very well and executing their plan as they'd prepared Neither of these should have been beyond Wales, but apparently it was.

Back then it looked like we were still amateurs pkaying professionals. Then we had a professional era where we could compete with anyone.

Now we look like a bunch of amateurs again.

Wellies? What’s the plan? -saving those nuanced moves for the RWC I assume!

Sourdust wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:09 pm I've been a paid-up member of the Give Pivac Time Club, but everything has its limits.

People quite rightly argue that changing the coaching team won't solve Wales' fundamental problems overnight, or indeed at all.

Giving a homeless person a sandwich doesn't solve all their problems either; but they still need the sandwich.

This is one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever heard to be fair.

We won't be changing the coach before the World Cup as that would be sheer madness, so you may as well all stop speculating on that.

Numbers wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:16 am

Sourdust wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:09 pm I've been a paid-up member of the Give Pivac Time Club, but everything has its limits.

People quite rightly argue that changing the coaching team won't solve Wales' fundamental problems overnight, or indeed at all.

Giving a homeless person a sandwich doesn't solve all their problems either; but they still need the sandwich.

This is one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever heard to be fair.

We won't be changing the coach before the World Cup as that would be sheer madness, so you may as well all stop speculating on that.

It wouldn't be my first choice either. But if the dressing room has indeed been lost the next year could turn into a horror show.

Equally, we might beat Australia next weekend and all will be well again, but if the WRU is going to act it needs to act now. However, I can't see the WRU taking the lead on this.

Before Georgia I wouldn't have considered sacking Pivac. Now I'd consider it, but only if we could get a very good long term solution, not just a caretaker for the WC. (Nor Dai Young, regardless of what WOL might say.)

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:33 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:14 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:46 pm

Italy this year. Western Samoa in the 1990s. Probably Romania in all fairness for a total disaster result.

Although shipping nearly a ton against the Bokke is a record that will take some beating

I remember watching Wales lose to France 51-0 in Wembley and thinking they were playing a different sport to us. And that wasn't unusual then, the top teams were just so much better than Wales and hidings weren't uncommon.

This Georgia result feels different in that Georgia won by doing the basics very well and executing their plan as they'd prepared Neither of these should have been beyond Wales, but apparently it was.

Back then it looked like we were still amateurs pkaying professionals. Then we had a professional era where we could compete with anyone.

Now we look like a bunch of amateurs again.

Other teams have been moving ahead. The dysfunctional foundation that is the WRU means we can't do that. There's raw talent but our development is poor. The regions can't do anything with it and now its really showing at the top level.

I would hate it to be true but can't deny the possibility that Gatland's tedious style was the best one for us, given the players' limited development. It's certainly looking like Pivac doesn't have a more effective style. I'm not sure he even has a style. Looking more like he just got lucky with a set of players at the Scarlets for a year or two.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:20 pm Before Georgia I wouldn't have considered sacking Pivac. Now I'd consider it, but only if we could get a very good long term solution, not just a caretaker for the WC. (Nor Dai Young, regardless of what WOL might say.)

Agree about Dai Young.

Clearly, the national side and the regions need to be even closer aligned. Can we develop a Welsh style of play that is then developed across our pro teams? And of course monitor how well sides are implementing that style along with player fitness standards.That would require joined up thinking but were too small to leave this to chance

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:51 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:20 pm Before Georgia I wouldn't have considered sacking Pivac. Now I'd consider it, but only if we could get a very good long term solution, not just a caretaker for the WC. (Nor Dai Young, regardless of what WOL might say.)

Agree about Dai Young.

Clearly, the national side and the regions need to be even closer aligned. Can we develop a Welsh style of play that is then developed across our pro teams? And of course monitor how well sides are implementing that style along with player fitness standards.That would require joined up thinking but were too small to leave this to chance

Agreed, with our limited resources we need to be efficient and that means a unified approach across the regions and national team. As far as possible the regions and national squad should employ the same playing style, forwards and backs, attack and defence, and fitness too. It's the only way our players can get enough practice to consistently execute a style of play. The regions and national team would see the benefit (once it bedded in), albeit they'd need to coordinate and swallow some pride*.

* in my dreams

Strikes me that you tend to underperform v lesser sides, but raise your game in the 6N. Even against NZ the scoreline didn't really reflect the game and beating Argentina- not a lesser side now- was a good result (the Scotland game would have been very different if Kremer hadn't lost the plot).

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:52 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:51 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:20 pm Before Georgia I wouldn't have considered sacking Pivac. Now I'd consider it, but only if we could get a very good long term solution, not just a caretaker for the WC. (Nor Dai Young, regardless of what WOL might say.)

Agree about Dai Young.

Clearly, the national side and the regions need to be even closer aligned. Can we develop a Welsh style of play that is then developed across our pro teams? And of course monitor how well sides are implementing that style along with player fitness standards.That would require joined up thinking but were too small to leave this to chance

Agreed, with our limited resources we need to be efficient and that means a unified approach across the regions and national team. As far as possible the regions and national squad should employ the same playing style, forwards and backs, attack and defence, and fitness too. It's the only way our players can get enough practice to consistently execute a style of play. The regions and national team would see the benefit (once it bedded in), albeit they'd need to coordinate and swallow some pride*.

* in my dreams

We’re not big enough to leave things to change like England and France can. But that means the pro element working together, semi pro too for that matter. But then it all gets tribal.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:43 pm Strikes me that you tend to underperform v lesser sides, but raise your game in the 6N. Even against NZ the scoreline didn't really reflect the game and beating Argentina- not a lesser side now- was a good result (the Scotland game would have been very different if Kremer hadn't lost the plot).

It’s eaten the at we really cut loose against a poorer side. We had a good win against Tonga a few years ago and I recall a big win against Namibia in the RWC ages ago. But often we don’t try to exploit advantages either because we put out a weaker team or because we don’t play expansively.

When we’re up for it, we tend to be attritions rahh to er than skilful.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:08 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:43 pm Strikes me that you tend to underperform v lesser sides, but raise your game in the 6N. Even against NZ the scoreline didn't really reflect the game and beating Argentina- not a lesser side now- was a good result (the Scotland game would have been very different if Kremer hadn't lost the plot).

It’s eaten the at we really cut loose against a poorer side. We had a good win against Tonga a few years ago and I recall a big win against Namibia in the RWC ages ago. But often we don’t try to exploit advantages either because we put out a weaker team or because we don’t play expansively.

When we’re up for it, we tend to be attritions rahh to er than skilful.

Your spellchecker needs a bit of help, but yes.

Perhaps we need a complete rethink starting with the separation of the professional and amateur setups in Wales.

Then put the WRU funding in place to support six regional teams - Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, a North Wales regional side and a new Valley’s side.

This would increase the pool of professional players available to the national team and hopefully start to build a larger and stronger fan base in each of the six areas. It’s radical and just as crazy as cutting one of the existing ‘regional’ sides. But it might work!

Six teams would open new pathways for emerging players in the semi-professional Premier League and allow older players to end their playing days at a reasonable level. The national coaches would have day-to-day overseer involvement with coaches at the six teams to ensure the playing style carried through to international side.

My random thoughts as I sit here wallowing in the news that Wales couldn’t defeat an average Georgia side in Cardiff. The shame and ignominy!

Let's call it the Welsh Premiersh.... Oh been done.

Actually I would love to go back to some domestic competition with the top players playing against each other week in week out. This whole Pro 14 ERC or whatever it is called does nothing for rivalries and gate receipts.

Saw the first half, knowing the end result. When we did get a bit of ball and go through phases it looked like it could be a handsome win. But basic errors held them back, needed to keep playing the same way. That Josh Adams try may have opened the floodgates, but we let them back in

What happened in the 2nd half. Did Georgia change the front row? Seemed to be some parity at times

Most sensible people without a vested interest in the status quo would want to separate the professional and amateur setups. Unfortunately the vested interests have the majority of votes.

Suggestions:

1) hope for the little clubs to see the big picture and vote for the good of rugby as a whole (not going to happen)
2) offer generous bribes (I mean bonuses) to get the required votes to change the structure
3) compulsory purchase of the whole entity by the Welsh government (for the good of Wales) in order to make the necessary changes.

I’d love for there to be six pro teams in wales but I don’t think we can afford it.

I’d completely separate the amateur and pro games at angovernance level and I’d like to see greater central control
On how the four pro teams operate. Problem is that would mean the WRU running them which isn’t a happy thought.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:40 pm I’d love for there to be six pro teams in wales but I don’t think we can afford it.

I’d completely separate the amateur and pro games at angovernance level and I’d like to see greater central control
On how the four pro teams operate. Problem is that would mean the WRU running them which isn’t a happy thought.

There isn't a magic line between amateur and Pro tho is there, some players will be paid expenses and a small salary for example whereas other players in the same team may not get anything, it's not black and white.

What we need to eradicate is the the jobs for the boys attitude when recruiting people into the WRU, something which is unfortunately prevalent across welsh rugby as a whole.

Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:52 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:40 pm I’d love for there to be six pro teams in wales but I don’t think we can afford it.

I’d completely separate the amateur and pro games at angovernance level and I’d like to see greater central control
On how the four pro teams operate. Problem is that would mean the WRU running them which isn’t a happy thought.

There isn't a magic line between amateur and Pro tho is there, some players will be paid expenses and a small salary for example whereas other players in the same team may not get anything, it's not black and white.

What we need to eradicate is the the jobs for the boys attitude when recruiting people into the WRU, something which is unfortunately prevalent across welsh rugby as a whole.

In fairness that's part of the problem. We have 4 fully pro sides, a semi-pro premiership and below that should be amateur but is it really?

There's simply not enough quality in the Premiership to build strength in depth. There's also far too many journeymen at the regional level. I've always resisted reducing the number of regions, but I am seriously wondering if we should have East, West and Northern regions, the latter being seen as a development pathway. Each owned by the WRU, leave the premiership as the benefactors to support the old club teams and allow each new region to be a feeder from those clubs. But regional contacts are offered by the WRU and all the coaching staff are provided by them too. The regions then pay clubs for use of home pitches which they rotate home games across their region as necessary.

Have a separate pro board for the national teams and regions, plus perhaps the premiership. Have a separate governance structure for the amateur teams below the prep. Or just govern the regions alone.

Until the handful of selfish bastards at the WRU who are happy to drive Welsh rugby into decline just in order to feather their nests stand aside, nothing effective will be done. We'll get new coaches in from time to time, some will be better than others, some will be more successful than others, but they won't reliably be able to compete with say Ireland because we won't develop players well enough. Just stand back, try not to care too much, and enjoy the occasional win - we will fluke a result from time to time.