RugbyRebels

jngf wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:19 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 7:25 pm Except he didn’t when he was available … No doubt he is an excellent player but Toulouse play to his strengths and on the evidence we have, he wasn’t quite able to translate his club performance to test level. He was perfectly good when he played, but not an obvious stand out.

It’s fair to say he was getting better, but to say he would ‘walk straight back in to the side’ isn’t accurate. He’d have a decent shout, but walk in? No.

As always, it’s about balance and I’m not sure Willis’ strengths (over the ball and carrying) are in the areas we need the most.

I seem to remember him making crucial turnovers and scores on the last couple of tests he played. RFU really have been stupid to loose such talent for the sake of preserving a largely dull and bloated Premiership rugby system.

jngf wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:19 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 7:25 pm Except he didn’t when he was available … No doubt he is an excellent player but Toulouse play to his strengths and on the evidence we have, he wasn’t quite able to translate his club performance to test level. He was perfectly good when he played, but not an obvious stand out.

It’s fair to say he was getting better, but to say he would ‘walk straight back in to the side’ isn’t accurate. He’d have a decent shout, but walk in? No.

As always, it’s about balance and I’m not sure Willis’ strengths (over the ball and carrying) are in the areas we need the most.

I seem to remember him making crucial turnovers and scores on the last couple of tests he played. RFU really have been stupid to loose such talent for the sake of preserving a largely dull and bloated Premiership rugby system.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:34 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:19 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 7:25 pm Except he didn’t when he was available … No doubt he is an excellent player but Toulouse play to his strengths and on the evidence we have, he wasn’t quite able to translate his club performance to test level. He was perfectly good when he played, but not an obvious stand out.

It’s fair to say he was getting better, but to say he would ‘walk straight back in to the side’ isn’t accurate. He’d have a decent shout, but walk in? No.

As always, it’s about balance and I’m not sure Willis’ strengths (over the ball and carrying) are in the areas we need the most.

I seem to remember him making crucial turnovers and scores on the last couple of tests he played. RFU really have been stupid to loose such talent for the sake of preserving a largely dull and bloated Premiership rugby system.

Sorry but this is where you and I always clash … memory/perception isn’t a reliable measure.

Here are the facts.

He has 4 England tries. 1 vs. Georgia and Chile and 2 vs. Italy … the lowest margin of victory was 17 points so I think it would be extremely generous to describe any of them as ‘crucial scores’.

Most of his appearances against the more notable sides have mostly been as a sub (20mins or less) and we lost most of them (one draw vs. NZ). I’m not in any way blaming him for the results, but his turnovers can’t have been that ‘crucial’ either because they didn’t turn those games or enable us to see out them out. I’m sure you’ll say we might have won if he’d started but that would be pure conjecture.

Wasps’ financial mismanagement is not really the RFU’s fault. Yes, overall governance should have been better but, the RFU were never and should never be directly managing a club’s outgoings. Perhaps if the central contracts had existed then, it may have prevented him from leaving but ultimately, I don’t think England have suffered greatly in his self-imposed exile.

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:21 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:19 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 7:25 pm Except he didn’t when he was available … No doubt he is an excellent player but Toulouse play to his strengths and on the evidence we have, he wasn’t quite able to translate his club performance to test level. He was perfectly good when he played, but not an obvious stand out.

It’s fair to say he was getting better, but to say he would ‘walk straight back in to the side’ isn’t accurate. He’d have a decent shout, but walk in? No.

As always, it’s about balance and I’m not sure Willis’ strengths (over the ball and carrying) are in the areas we need the most.

I seem to remember him making crucial turnovers and scores on the last couple of tests he played. RFU really have been stupid to loose such talent for the sake of preserving a largely dull and bloated Premiership rugby system.

You don't even watch it dude

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:21 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:19 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 7:25 pm Except he didn’t when he was available … No doubt he is an excellent player but Toulouse play to his strengths and on the evidence we have, he wasn’t quite able to translate his club performance to test level. He was perfectly good when he played, but not an obvious stand out.

It’s fair to say he was getting better, but to say he would ‘walk straight back in to the side’ isn’t accurate. He’d have a decent shout, but walk in? No.

As always, it’s about balance and I’m not sure Willis’ strengths (over the ball and carrying) are in the areas we need the most.

I seem to remember him making crucial turnovers and scores on the last couple of tests he played. RFU really have been stupid to loose such talent for the sake of preserving a largely dull and bloated Premiership rugby system.

You don't even watch it dude

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 8:26 am I'm not going to repeat my opinion of Jack Willis. We have some excellent backrowers. So far, though, none have been an integral part of a GS or RWC winning team. Debating who are the best three out of 9 or 10 candidates is not as important as discussing how every unit of our team improves from the runners-up standard achieved at best so far, including the back row.

If any of the candidates have reached their ceiling there has to be a case for moving on to others who may be capable of raising the collective standard. IMO, T Willis and Pollock come into the latter category. There may well be others. As always, the HC needs to apply judgement and give those he rates sustained opportunities. That was done for Dombrandt without success, of course.

jngf wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 2:21 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 8:26 am I'm not going to repeat my opinion of Jack Willis. We have some excellent backrowers. So far, though, none have been an integral part of a GS or RWC winning team. Debating who are the best three out of 9 or 10 candidates is not as important as discussing how every unit of our team improves from the runners-up standard achieved at best so far, including the back row.

If any of the candidates have reached their ceiling there has to be a case for moving on to others who may be capable of raising the collective standard. IMO, T Willis and Pollock come into the latter category. There may well be others. As always, the HC needs to apply judgement and give those he rates sustained opportunities. That was done for Dombrandt without success, of course.

Regarding Dombrandt I always thought overall backrow balance was a significant factor in not getting the best out of him. He’s never claimed to be some sort of Billy V 2.0 ( ditto neither did Nathan Hughes) but if paired with a 6 like CCS or Roots and a 7 like Underhill we may yet see him come into his own as a significantly more favourable test 8 option

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 2:35 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 2:21 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 8:26 am I'm not going to repeat my opinion of Jack Willis. We have some excellent backrowers. So far, though, none have been an integral part of a GS or RWC winning team. Debating who are the best three out of 9 or 10 candidates is not as important as discussing how every unit of our team improves from the runners-up standard achieved at best so far, including the back row.

If any of the candidates have reached their ceiling there has to be a case for moving on to others who may be capable of raising the collective standard. IMO, T Willis and Pollock come into the latter category. There may well be others. As always, the HC needs to apply judgement and give those he rates sustained opportunities. That was done for Dombrandt without success, of course.

Regarding Dombrandt I always thought overall backrow balance was a significant factor in not getting the best out of him. He’s never claimed to be some sort of Billy V 2.0 ( ditto neither did Nathan Hughes) but if paired with a 6 like CCS or Roots and a 7 like Underhill we may yet see him come into his own as a significantly more favourable test 8 option

CCS or Roots isn't really like for like. Though not sure why this debate is even happening.

jngf wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 2:16 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:21 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:19 pm

I seem to remember him making crucial turnovers and scores on the last couple of tests he played. RFU really have been stupid to loose such talent for the sake of preserving a largely dull and bloated Premiership rugby system.

You don't even watch it dude

It was actually watching a turgid display at the Ricoh Stadium which put me off

Puja wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 4:07 pm

jngf wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 2:16 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 8:21 pm

You don't even watch it dude

It was actually watching a turgid display at the Ricoh Stadium which put me off

So pretty much 3 years then. The game's changed more than a little bit in the last three years. As have the players.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 4:10 pm https://archive.ph/7Kv6v

A bit on Emeka Ilione. I thought he'd slowed down on his studies but nope, apparently between rugby and medicine he's doing pretty much 12 hour days 7 days a week.

Slater582 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 9:45 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 4:10 pm https://archive.ph/7Kv6v

A bit on Emeka Ilione. I thought he'd slowed down on his studies but nope, apparently between rugby and medicine he's doing pretty much 12 hour days 7 days a week.

Be good if he could shift Cracknell out of the 8 spot at Leicester.

England have probably got enough Flankers

Slater582 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 9:45 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 4:10 pm https://archive.ph/7Kv6v

A bit on Emeka Ilione. I thought he'd slowed down on his studies but nope, apparently between rugby and medicine he's doing pretty much 12 hour days 7 days a week.

Be good if he could shift Cracknell out of the 8 spot at Leicester.

England have probably got enough Flankers

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 11:05 am This is a great topic. I did the lazy thing of asking Gemini (with some context and a semi decent prompt) to do some research into our depth.

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 11:51 amThe big takeaway from this thread is that we are way better stocked with potential than I can remember. Including the early 00s - although our standard was obviously way higher then. But potential felt close… and we didn’t manage that well.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 12:57 pm

pjm1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 11:51 amThe big takeaway from this thread is that we are way better stocked with potential than I can remember. Including the early 00s - although our standard was obviously way higher then. But potential felt close… and we didn’t manage that well.

, "England are world champions at wasting talent",

The trick (as always) will be turning a surfeit of very good players into a team of great ones - we've always had the situation where our 4th XV would trash most teams' 2nd XVs, but the problem is always that you can only have 15 players on the pitch at a time.

Puja