Re: Scotland v England Sat 24 Feb 4.45pm
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:10 am
Are you convinced by the coaching in all other areas, then?
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Three of the others I mentioned have been picked, and look ordinary. Daly is quick but needs to back himself. Steward is not a strike runner.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:07 pmDid you think Dan and CCs had great potential over and above others before SB picked them? Or do you rate them now as you've seen them properly for England... perhaps if some of the others were picked you might rate them too. Let's be honest CCS has played for England for a few minutes, but looked big and quick against Italy and the media love him, and then so do fans. Pearson was dumped against Wales in a WC warm up and millions around the country thought he was rubbish. I think there's great potential amongst many of these players, as Richard Hill clearly did with Ethan Roots, right?Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:53 pmOHC, Coka, Hill, Moon, even Roots arent worrying anyone, and Steward as strike runner?TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:11 pm
Which names baffle you as prospects?
Also fair to say that listing players that may or may not be good now or in future is a minefield - we're not going to talk through each individual - my overall point which I standby is that if SB plays in the way I'm saying he should - i.e. in the way that almost beat the world champions when we outplayed them fairly recently, (and beat the Argies with 14 men for 70mins), the talent pool in the prem is starting to look like it might provide some decent probables, possibles and future hopes that could fit with that. I don't think that is too contentious frankly.
Strike runners - as I've said before, I think the treatment of Cokanasiga is mad - pick him, drop him, pick him etc, same with OHC, didn't get the ball for three games, suddenly he's terrible, drop him again... I think Feyi-Waboso is a strike runner, I think when fit Watson is class, I think even the likes of Murley, Roebuck etc are more dangerous ball in hand than Daly currently.
There are some talented running threats in the premiership - bearing in mind with Steward, Lawrence/Freeman in the side we're only looking for a handful more for a match day 22. I don't think SB has the excuse, there's some interesting options in what is a large player pool.
Watsons time has gone, and saying Murley/Roebuck are more dangerous than Daly- who is a tad underrated- at this level seems premature.
There is some potential in some players, -Dan,CCs- but others as above are just good prem players.
Daly isn't underrated - he has a large number of caps and experience but ultimately not the ability (he did in the past) to really do what we'd like him to do. He has 64 caps so can't blame a lack of experience but ultimately he's no great threat as a runner... at international level, that's not ideal for a winger. I wouldn't say he's underrated. OHC and Coka would I suspect worry their opposition defender with a bit of time and space. And yes, Steward as a strike runner - in the oppo 22 at pace on the right line - I'd say he's a threat.
Yeah you don't get how the media in this country work do you. You can say this is the plan all you like, won't stop Stuart Barnes, SCW and Matt Dawson tearing strips off every performance will it. You win or you get criticised and sometimes if you win you still get criticised. The media is always out for blood, it sells paper and gets clicks online.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:51 pmI've been saying that "being in transition" isn't acceptable - but to be fair when you're saying - the media are "out for blood" - that's partly because he comes across as a stiff, dull, uninspiring plank of a man who the media won't rally around. If he said with great dynamism, class and authority - "this is the plan, we're going to be in transition for x period of time, it is on this basis that I've taken the job and we will win handsomely by x date" - then it might work... but of course he isn't up to any of that.FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:55 pmNo England coach will be allowed by the media to be in transition. Never going to happen. You're expected to both win and entertain otherwise the ex pros and coaches in the media are out for blood.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:22 pm
"Ollie Lawrence being 24 and having 22 caps doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the list." - Right but you get the point. And anyway, he's hardly a newby.
In terms of your point about 2019 - I think that's fair absolutely. But he'd better off explaining what he's going to do - is he trying to just win now? In which case, just say so and don't then say we're a young team in transition. Or, pick a young team, scrap all the old, and then justifiably say we're in transition.
In terms of your points on Care, Ford etc - I'm not criticising him for those picks, just saying that the 'transition' thing isn't valid.
He doesn't know if he trusts Care yet. He didn't know who he really wanted at fly half, he doesn't know who he really wants at FB etc - he's not 100% sure what his plan is in my view.
Borthwick doesn't tend to be one for picking a 15 and that's his 15. It changes depending on the opposition and the tactics. He made a lot of on paper, odd looking selections as Tigers head coach. Freddie Burns starting games at 15 instead of Steward or the first choice props on the bench and coming on for the second half. Happened so often the Tigers fans stopped questioning it.
He knows he trusts Care to do a job he'd just prefer that he didn't have to. Similar with Ford albeit Ford isn't completely over the hill.
I do know how the media work in this country funnily enough. Steve coming across as such a plank doesn't help him. Eddie coming across as an arrogant, self-centred knob didn't help him either. A great communicator with great knowledge doing the job very well would be able to handle the media for a period of time if successful in their plan - although obviously these things never last and at some point it'd come crashing down of course, but not necessarily after 18 months or whatever it's been. Anyway, we've gone off at a tangent - I am aware that sports media are highly critical and are keen for blood.FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:38 amYeah you don't get how the media in this country work do you. You can say this is the plan all you like, won't stop Stuart Barnes, SCW and Matt Dawson tearing strips off every performance will it. You win or you get criticised and sometimes if you win you still get criticised. The media is always out for blood, it sells paper and gets clicks online.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:51 pmI've been saying that "being in transition" isn't acceptable - but to be fair when you're saying - the media are "out for blood" - that's partly because he comes across as a stiff, dull, uninspiring plank of a man who the media won't rally around. If he said with great dynamism, class and authority - "this is the plan, we're going to be in transition for x period of time, it is on this basis that I've taken the job and we will win handsomely by x date" - then it might work... but of course he isn't up to any of that.FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:55 pm
No England coach will be allowed by the media to be in transition. Never going to happen. You're expected to both win and entertain otherwise the ex pros and coaches in the media are out for blood.
Borthwick doesn't tend to be one for picking a 15 and that's his 15. It changes depending on the opposition and the tactics. He made a lot of on paper, odd looking selections as Tigers head coach. Freddie Burns starting games at 15 instead of Steward or the first choice props on the bench and coming on for the second half. Happened so often the Tigers fans stopped questioning it.
He knows he trusts Care to do a job he'd just prefer that he didn't have to. Similar with Ford albeit Ford isn't completely over the hill.
We had Eddie the outgoing chatty coach and he got slated. Now we've gone to the media introvert and he still gets slated, what a surprise. Alex Payne has said Borthwick is the most frustrating coach/player he's ever interviewed because off the record before the interview he's funny and insightful and as soon as camera rolls it's PR training handbook time. Most of the EQ head coaches in the Prem are the same Skivington, Sanderson, Dowson, Baxter none of them are coming out and saying anything controversial. Sanderson might get closest if he's feeling a bit emotional on a subject and occasionally Baxter might have a specific view on the game (e.g. scrums this season) but none are going to stand there and do what you've described, they know the media will use it as ammunition. Why make their lives harder.
I'd disagree it's where he's best. Set play, arriving at pace where he can go himself or draw a man and pass. Very much in Steward's wheelhouse, removes the acceleration aspect from the equation and at pace with his size and strength he's always going to get over the gain line even if tackles by the first defender.Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:33 amThree of the others I mentioned have been picked, and look ordinary. Daly is quick but needs to back himself. Steward is not a strike runner.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:07 pmDid you think Dan and CCs had great potential over and above others before SB picked them? Or do you rate them now as you've seen them properly for England... perhaps if some of the others were picked you might rate them too. Let's be honest CCS has played for England for a few minutes, but looked big and quick against Italy and the media love him, and then so do fans. Pearson was dumped against Wales in a WC warm up and millions around the country thought he was rubbish. I think there's great potential amongst many of these players, as Richard Hill clearly did with Ethan Roots, right?Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:53 pm
OHC, Coka, Hill, Moon, even Roots arent worrying anyone, and Steward as strike runner?
Watsons time has gone, and saying Murley/Roebuck are more dangerous than Daly- who is a tad underrated- at this level seems premature.
There is some potential in some players, -Dan,CCs- but others as above are just good prem players.
Daly isn't underrated - he has a large number of caps and experience but ultimately not the ability (he did in the past) to really do what we'd like him to do. He has 64 caps so can't blame a lack of experience but ultimately he's no great threat as a runner... at international level, that's not ideal for a winger. I wouldn't say he's underrated. OHC and Coka would I suspect worry their opposition defender with a bit of time and space. And yes, Steward as a strike runner - in the oppo 22 at pace on the right line - I'd say he's a threat.
By strike runner I mean - he has the ability to cause defences problems with his running if he hits the right line, in the right area of the pitch - as we have seen before - at full speed, with his size, he takes some stopping, as we saw against Wales, before he was dropped. I said strike runner, you call it what you like.Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:33 amThree of the others I mentioned have been picked, and look ordinary. Daly is quick but needs to back himself. Steward is not a strike runner.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:07 pmDid you think Dan and CCs had great potential over and above others before SB picked them? Or do you rate them now as you've seen them properly for England... perhaps if some of the others were picked you might rate them too. Let's be honest CCS has played for England for a few minutes, but looked big and quick against Italy and the media love him, and then so do fans. Pearson was dumped against Wales in a WC warm up and millions around the country thought he was rubbish. I think there's great potential amongst many of these players, as Richard Hill clearly did with Ethan Roots, right?Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:53 pm
OHC, Coka, Hill, Moon, even Roots arent worrying anyone, and Steward as strike runner?
Watsons time has gone, and saying Murley/Roebuck are more dangerous than Daly- who is a tad underrated- at this level seems premature.
There is some potential in some players, -Dan,CCs- but others as above are just good prem players.
Daly isn't underrated - he has a large number of caps and experience but ultimately not the ability (he did in the past) to really do what we'd like him to do. He has 64 caps so can't blame a lack of experience but ultimately he's no great threat as a runner... at international level, that's not ideal for a winger. I wouldn't say he's underrated. OHC and Coka would I suspect worry their opposition defender with a bit of time and space. And yes, Steward as a strike runner - in the oppo 22 at pace on the right line - I'd say he's a threat.
Agreed on Steward.FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 amI'd disagree it's where he's best. Set play, arriving at pace where he can go himself or draw a man and pass. Very much in Steward's wheelhouse, removes the acceleration aspect from the equation and at pace with his size and strength he's always going to get over the gain line even if tackles by the first defender.Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:33 amThree of the others I mentioned have been picked, and look ordinary. Daly is quick but needs to back himself. Steward is not a strike runner.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:07 pm
Did you think Dan and CCs had great potential over and above others before SB picked them? Or do you rate them now as you've seen them properly for England... perhaps if some of the others were picked you might rate them too. Let's be honest CCS has played for England for a few minutes, but looked big and quick against Italy and the media love him, and then so do fans. Pearson was dumped against Wales in a WC warm up and millions around the country thought he was rubbish. I think there's great potential amongst many of these players, as Richard Hill clearly did with Ethan Roots, right?
Daly isn't underrated - he has a large number of caps and experience but ultimately not the ability (he did in the past) to really do what we'd like him to do. He has 64 caps so can't blame a lack of experience but ultimately he's no great threat as a runner... at international level, that's not ideal for a winger. I wouldn't say he's underrated. OHC and Coka would I suspect worry their opposition defender with a bit of time and space. And yes, Steward as a strike runner - in the oppo 22 at pace on the right line - I'd say he's a threat.
It's one of my frustrations with the current attack that we didn't use him as almost a third centre when Slade and Dingwall were in the midfield. Neither of those two are particularly strong carriers at international level and having Steward arrive on the shoulder at pace would have given us more threat in the centre and possibly freed up some more space for them, ideally Dingwall to operate in.
Simply Baldrick is as cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University.
I daren't click on this in case I see Haskell's face. That's his show, right?fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 2:25 pm Some good insightful chat here. May is worth listening to as a recently retired international.
No Hask. Tins, Payne & May.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:10 pmI daren't click on this in case I see Haskell's face. That's his show, right?fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 2:25 pm Some good insightful chat here. May is worth listening to as a recently retired international.
On a related note I'm not sure if it's been mentioned that Andy Goode went on GB News to hang out with Nigel Farage the other week. It was definitely the push I needed to kick my filthy habit of watching the 'rugby pod' clips.
I find Tindall pretty hard to like too to be honest - having a big public profile has helped get him gigs like this (and fair play to him for making the most of life definitely) - but he's not funny and I think sounds pretty pleased with himself, as does Haskell. Alex Payne is an absolute pro, he's extremely good - I often wonder if he's frustrated that he isn't sharing this pod with two more likeable people - I can imagine many, many viewers just getting fed up with Hask and Tindall pretty quickly or over time.fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:39 pmNo Hask. Tins, Payne & May.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:10 pmI daren't click on this in case I see Haskell's face. That's his show, right?fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 2:25 pm Some good insightful chat here. May is worth listening to as a recently retired international.
On a related note I'm not sure if it's been mentioned that Andy Goode went on GB News to hang out with Nigel Farage the other week. It was definitely the push I needed to kick my filthy habit of watching the 'rugby pod' clips.
I certainly did. Haskell freely admits he doesn't bother watching much rugby and nothing Tindall says really adds anything. They are best telling their anecdotes with former teammates than trying to actually analyse games.TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:54 pmI find Tindall pretty hard to like too to be honest - having a big public profile has helped get him gigs like this (and fair play to him for making the most of life definitely) - but he's not funny and I think sounds pretty pleased with himself, as does Haskell. Alex Payne is an absolute pro, he's extremely good - I often wonder if he's frustrated that he isn't sharing this pod with two more likeable people - I can imagine many, many viewers just getting fed up with Hask and Tindall pretty quickly or over time.fivepointer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:39 pmNo Hask. Tins, Payne & May.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:10 pm
I daren't click on this in case I see Haskell's face. That's his show, right?
On a related note I'm not sure if it's been mentioned that Andy Goode went on GB News to hang out with Nigel Farage the other week. It was definitely the push I needed to kick my filthy habit of watching the 'rugby pod' clips.
Me too - as I get older, I find that level of ego and self-centeredness just intolerable.FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:13 pmI certainly did. Haskell freely admits he doesn't bother watching much rugby and nothing Tindall says really adds anything. They are best telling their anecdotes with former teammates than trying to actually analyse games.TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 4:54 pmI find Tindall pretty hard to like too to be honest - having a big public profile has helped get him gigs like this (and fair play to him for making the most of life definitely) - but he's not funny and I think sounds pretty pleased with himself, as does Haskell. Alex Payne is an absolute pro, he's extremely good - I often wonder if he's frustrated that he isn't sharing this pod with two more likeable people - I can imagine many, many viewers just getting fed up with Hask and Tindall pretty quickly or over time.
The Aussie version was a decent watch.
I know what you mean and if you love the subject of England rugby, it's easy to find yourself watching it, and I agree on May. I find Hamilton and Goode more amusing, Lahiff (on the wone with him and Ryan Wilson) seems a nice lad and knowledgeable, and as you might expect, Gitau, Ashley Copper and Drew Mitchell pretty down to earth. Haskell and Tindall CAN be a tough watch.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:56 pm Haskell also readily admits he’s ADHD and a nob. You’ve also got to factor in that they need engagement and thus need to be a bit controversial at times. Selection is easiest for that. But overall they’re pretty good.
And aside from that the Jonny May episodes are simply amazing! Genuinely brilliant!
You would.FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 amI'd disagree it's where he's best.Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:33 amThree of the others I mentioned have been picked, and look ordinary. Daly is quick but needs to back himself. Steward is not a strike runner.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:07 pm
Did you think Dan and CCs had great potential over and above others before SB picked them? Or do you rate them now as you've seen them properly for England... perhaps if some of the others were picked you might rate them too. Let's be honest CCS has played for England for a few minutes, but looked big and quick against Italy and the media love him, and then so do fans. Pearson was dumped against Wales in a WC warm up and millions around the country thought he was rubbish. I think there's great potential amongst many of these players, as Richard Hill clearly did with Ethan Roots, right?
Daly isn't underrated - he has a large number of caps and experience but ultimately not the ability (he did in the past) to really do what we'd like him to do. He has 64 caps so can't blame a lack of experience but ultimately he's no great threat as a runner... at international level, that's not ideal for a winger. I wouldn't say he's underrated. OHC and Coka would I suspect worry their opposition defender with a bit of time and space. And yes, Steward as a strike runner - in the oppo 22 at pace on the right line - I'd say he's a threat.