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I mentioned it in the minute-by-minute, but it's worth unburying the lede - we lost 1 attacking ruck all game last week and over 60% of our rucks were under 3 seconds. Very easy to say, "Oh, it's only Italy," but Lamaro/Negri/Cannone is hardly a bad back row, and those kind of numbers are spectacular.
Very much this.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:48 am The trick is doing something with it, but it was a marked improvement certainly.
Suspect we didn't make enough dents from tight carrying off the quick rucks?16th man wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:19 pmVery much this.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:48 am The trick is doing something with it, but it was a marked improvement certainly.
Was surprised when the stat came up because, whist we'd definitely looked busier, it's not like we regularly took their defence apart in the way you'd assume that sort of ruck speed would allow
And / or through the midfieldBanquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:43 pmSuspect we didn't make enough dents from tight carrying off the quick rucks?16th man wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:19 pmVery much this.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:48 am The trick is doing something with it, but it was a marked improvement certainly.
Was surprised when the stat came up because, whist we'd definitely looked busier, it's not like we regularly took their defence apart in the way you'd assume that sort of ruck speed would allow
We lack dynamism. No quick pick and goes, and when we do, they're trundles. The whole point of everything we do seems to be to pull the opposition out of shape.Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:43 pmSuspect we didn't make enough dents from tight carrying off the quick rucks?16th man wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:19 pmVery much this.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:48 am The trick is doing something with it, but it was a marked improvement certainly.
Was surprised when the stat came up because, whist we'd definitely looked busier, it's not like we regularly took their defence apart in the way you'd assume that sort of ruck speed would allow
best way of getting defence out of shape is getting behind them, bit harder to do laterally which you have to do close to the tackle line (which we did do a few times in fairness, but it needs high skill levels and everyone on the same page.....and Tommy Freeman coming from deep every timeStom wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:55 pmWe lack dynamism. No quick pick and goes, and when we do, they're trundles. The whole point of everything we do seems to be to pull the opposition out of shape.
But then we have no idea what to do.
)kind of my point, you have to work hard to break defences evenwith quick ball- butPuja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:59 pm I will take a moment to note that, from the minute-by-minute, Italy's defence is excellent. They're well-organised, back to their feet quickly, making good tackles - I think we are falling into the trap of "Oh, it's only Italy," and ignoring the possibility that this might be a pretty good Italy side. We'll have to wait and see how they go against other teams, but I think they might beat Wales and Scotland if they play like that all the way through.
Puja
My impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:43 pmkind of my point, you have to work hard to break defences evenwith quick ball- butPuja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:59 pm I will take a moment to note that, from the minute-by-minute, Italy's defence is excellent. They're well-organised, back to their feet quickly, making good tackles - I think we are falling into the trap of "Oh, it's only Italy," and ignoring the possibility that this might be a pretty good Italy side. We'll have to wait and see how they go against other teams, but I think they might beat Wales and Scotland if they play like that all the way through.
Puja
did you get a feel for how much they competed at the breakdown
On the Wales thread you applaud the prospect of an unchanged team. On here, you've mentioned one name that makes me disagree - Reffell. I think he'll have a field day if we pick the same back-row.Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:10 pmMy impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:43 pmkind of my point, you have to work hard to break defences evenwith quick ball- butPuja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:59 pm I will take a moment to note that, from the minute-by-minute, Italy's defence is excellent. They're well-organised, back to their feet quickly, making good tackles - I think we are falling into the trap of "Oh, it's only Italy," and ignoring the possibility that this might be a pretty good Italy side. We'll have to wait and see how they go against other teams, but I think they might beat Wales and Scotland if they play like that all the way through.
Puja
did you get a feel for how much they competed at the breakdown
Puja
Good work, thanks!- I do remember the ball often actually even being behind the back feet before the 'dummy half' was even there. How many were in the breakdown, as an impression?Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:10 pmMy impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:43 pmkind of my point, you have to work hard to break defences evenwith quick ball- butPuja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:59 pm I will take a moment to note that, from the minute-by-minute, Italy's defence is excellent. They're well-organised, back to their feet quickly, making good tackles - I think we are falling into the trap of "Oh, it's only Italy," and ignoring the possibility that this might be a pretty good Italy side. We'll have to wait and see how they go against other teams, but I think they might beat Wales and Scotland if they play like that all the way through.
Puja
did you get a feel for how much they competed at the breakdown
Puja
Yeah, a more savvy team might beat Mitchell to the ball on occasions. Mild concern, but better than making him dig for it.Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:53 amGood work, thanks!- I do remember the ball often actually even being behind the back feet before the 'dummy half' was even there. How many were in the breakdown, as an impression?Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:10 pmMy impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.
Puja
If Underhill plays like he did last week, then yes. Quality doesn't just vanish though and he'll be a different player for having had a match under his belt, given that he hadn't played for nearly two months before Italy.Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:22 amOn the Wales thread you applaud the prospect of an unchanged team. On here, you've mentioned one name that makes me disagree - Reffell. I think he'll have a field day if we pick the same back-row.Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:10 pmMy impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.
Puja
I hope you are right. Presumably, his performance in training indicates that. I have concerns that since injury he is no longer the player he was. Can rustiness account for such slowness of thought and movement? To me, he looks to have lost the very skill characteristics that got him picked in the first place. Take away his edge and he doesn't make the tackles he was renowned for. Fingers crossed!Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:20 amIf Underhill plays like he did last week, then yes. Quality doesn't just vanish though and he'll be a different player for having had a match under his belt, given that he hadn't played for nearly two months before Italy.Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:22 amOn the Wales thread you applaud the prospect of an unchanged team. On here, you've mentioned one name that makes me disagree - Reffell. I think he'll have a field day if we pick the same back-row.Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:10 pm
My impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.
Puja
Puja
That'll be why even with quick ball we weren't making easier dents.Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:19 amprioritising bodies on feet. Usually it was one or two people making a massive nuisance and at most one or two supporters.Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:53 amGood work, thanks!- I do remember the ball often actually even being behind the back feet before the 'dummy half' was even there. How many were in the breakdown, as an impression?Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:10 pm
My impression so far is that Italy were consistently dicks at the breakdown, trying to get through to disrupt the 9 and slow down the ball. They weren't necessarily trying for jackals like Reffell will be, but they were definitely going hard for decent chunks of the game. It's been our ball presentation that's been the difference so far - we're not leaving the ball in to be tangled up.
Puja
Puja
Good point. I wonder if the stats were misleading because Mitchell arrives and distributes so much more quickly than Youngs ever did. Against Italy, without much groundhog disruption, the stats made us look OK at recycling our own ball. Against Wales, there will be no easy ride. They will be in our faces even if they annoy the ref, I suspect.Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:59 am I'm interested how we level Underhill/Earl apparently being utterly useless with our incredible ruck-speed (that we failed to do much with) and ruck retention, in terms of the Reffell threat against Wales.
It's probably worth noting Scotland didn't really challenge breakdowns much and the backrow were pretty dreadful for most of it, as good as Reffell was.
