RugbyRebels

You're missing something, Tyler . . .

Which Tyler wrote:Wasn't one of those "standard criteria" governmental support? If that governmental support is questionable, then the bid remains hampered by that - unless I'm mis-remembering of course

Yep.

Which anyone with a brain could see they have. Doh!

I wonder how Brexit might affect an Irish RWC, especially if there ends up being a hard border across the island?

South Africa starting to churn out some positive publicity now. Ireland stole a march in this respect, and kudos to them for it, but I think both the SA and French bids look far more attractive on the whole, with the difference there being that the latter hosted a decade ago while the former hasn't hosted at all in the professional age. For certain we have a 3-way race on our hands now.

CAPE TOWN – The new Minister of Sport and Recreation Thulas Nxesi says that the hosting of the Rugby World Cup in South Africa in 2023 could make a huge impact and leave a legacy in the country, much like the 2010 Soccer World Cup had.
http://ewn.co.za/2017/05/03/nxesi-sa-ha ... -world-cup

Lizard wrote:I wonder how Brexit might affect an Irish RWC, especially if there ends up being a hard border across the island?

Didn't matter in 2007.

Did the 2010 Football World Cup in SA leave much of a positive legacy? Perhaps hard to say when there are so many other problems in the country, and it'd be unfair to expect any sport to deal with them, but in practice the legacy seems to be a number of huge stadiums that in the main struggle to sell out 10% of tickets even for the big football games.

Also perhaps not SA's fault they were landed with a world cup only shortly into something of a financial crisis. But what the situation they've rather loused up the legacy part, and I can't say I'd trust them to do any better with the rugby when so far the only political interventions in rugby have been to ban an attempt to host the RWC and to advocate discrimination.

Your last comment gives the game away there, because in fact they have fought to eradicate discrimination, not advocate it, which seems to rankle with you - and many others. This is undoubtedly a problem within rugby, whose three major communities remain well-to-do Brits, Kiwis and white South Africans. I don't really have any personal insight regarding what kind of legacy the 2010 Football World Cup left, but there can be no debate over the highly positive legacy of the 1995 Rugby World Cup in South Africa with those iconic images of Madiba handing over the trophy. Sadly rugby itself has failed to fully embrace that legacy, with its repeated rejection of the second largest and second most successful rugby nation's World Cup bids since the transition to majority rule. The 2011 decision was highly dubious, IMHO, given the subsequent hosts had been deemed unfit to co-host just 8 years earlier. That should have earned them a spell out in the cold, but the wheelings and dealings among the privileged few behind the scenes do not take such factors into consideration.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland2023/
Should be able to see a film narrated by Liam Neeson

Totally agree with this:

Cape Town - SA Rugby CEO Jurie Roux was in Dublin on Tuesday where he successfully handed in the country's official 2023 Rugby World Cup bid to World Rugby headquarters.

With government backing finally secured, South Africa is up against France and Ireland in an effort to host its first World Cup since 1995.

A final decision on the host nation is expected from World Rugby in November of this year.

Roux seems confident that SA Rugby has prepared a compelling bid, and he spoke on Tuesday about why he believed that South Africa was the ideal location for the showpiece.

Here are Roux's SIX arguments for bringing the Webb Ellis Cup back to South Africa:

1. Profit

"A World Cup is the biggest property of World Rugby. Within that, they obviously need to make a lot of profit and that actually sustains World Rugby for the next four years. We believe, from a profit point of view, that we will make more money than any other World Cup that has been hosted previously.

"We can deliver any World Cup at half the cost of the other countries that are able to do so and then, from a rugby point of view in terms of tickets, we've proven with the Cricket World Cup, the IPL and the FIFA World Cup that we will sell all of those tickets. With the influx of visitors into our country and with the advantage of currency, we're pretty sure that we'll be able to sell all of those tickets."

2. Infrastructure

"From a facilities point of view, we've obviously got all of the stadiums. We've got brand new stadiums built for the FIFA World Cup in 2010. By the time the next World Cup gets here in 2023 they will be 14 years old and in stadium terms, that is absolutely nothing."

3. SA is a rugby-mad nation

"We're a rugby-mad country and a sporting-mad country. In the time of the World Cup there will be nothing other than rugby. We won't be dominated by any other event or sport. You'll be in a rugby carnival for that period of time."

4. SA's track record

"If you think about our track record, we've got an ability to deliver major events. We've done a Cricket World Cup, a Rugby World Cup, a Soccer World Cup, we've done the IPL ... we are one of only two countries that has successfully hosted a cricket, rugby and soccer World Cup. We've got all of the knowledge."

5. Uniquely African experience

"Add to that the uniquely South African experience and the African experience. The visitor to South Africa will not only be able to watch some rugby, but also be able to go to the Kruger Park, beaches, the winelands ... whatever their fancy is. That adds an extra dimension to our bid."

6. We're due another World Cup

"It needs to come back to Africa. It belongs in Africa. It's been all over the world now ... it's gone to Asia. It's only been in Africa once and by 2023 it will be nearly 30 years since it's been in South Africa. We need it as a country and something positive to take us forward."

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springbo ... p-20170531

Meanwhile:

IRELAND’S BID TO host the 2023 Rugby World Cup has hit its first snag today after the high court in Belfast refused to grant planning permission to redevelop Casement Park.
The Belfast venue was tipped to be one of the grounds included in a bid but that could be in jeopardy after the court’s decision.
“Planning permission for the proposed redevelopment of Casement Park has been denied in the High Court in Belfast,” the GAA said on their website.
Local residents objected to the proposed expansion, which led to today’s ruling.
“We are deeply disappointed by the outcome of today’s decision by Mr. Justice Horner,” said Tom Daly, Chairman of the Casement Park Project Board.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-rugby-worl ... 3-Dec2014/

SA. A rugby mad country with lots of spare seats to watch the games...

This year hasn't been good for Super Rugby in general but last year's Wiki stats show SA is getting the best crowds for club rugby (CC) in the World, and also the best crowds in Super Rugby. & the idea they wouldn't fill their stadiums for a World Cup in the modern era is pretty far fetched. Ireland, on the other hand, is going to have to revolve the whole thing around Dublin - unless of course they ship a few games to France & Britain. ie the farce of a privileged few nations co-hosting the tournament on every 2nd occasion will continue.

rowan wrote:This year hasn't been good for Super Rugby in general but last year's Wiki stats show SA is getting the best crowds for club rugby (CC) in the World, and also the best crowds in Super Rugby. & the idea they wouldn't fill their stadiums for a World Cup in the modern era is pretty far fetched. Ireland, on the other hand, is going to have to revolve the whole thing around Dublin - unless of course they ship a few games to France & Britain. ie the farce of a privileged few nations co-hosting the tournament on every 2nd occasion will continue.

Perhaps you'd like to provide a link for that assertion of best crowds in the world as it seems very unlikely to me.

Sure, here's the Super Rugby stats for 2015 http://rugby.statbunker.com/competition ... omp_id=477 SA quite clearly out in front there, while the crowds for club & provincial rugby were previously discussed here: http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtop ... NFL#p70907

Also: In 2012 the average attendance at Currie Cup fixtures was 18.5K https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Curr ... r_Division

rowan wrote:Sure, here's the Super Rugby stats for 2015 http://rugby.statbunker.com/competition ... omp_id=477 SA quite clearly out in front there, while the crowds for club & provincial rugby were previously discussed here: http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtop ... NFL#p70907

Also: In 2012 the average attendance at Currie Cup fixtures was 18.5K https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Curr ... r_Division

The statbunker link is quite obviously nonsense unless you're going to persuade me that the stormers had 4 home games all 2015. Figures from 2012 are pretty bloody irrelevant.

It's actually a little difficult for me to research at present as Wiki has been banned in Turkey and I need to go in and out of proxies to use it, while attendance figures seem to have disappeared from match reports since my day. ISo you can research this yourself, of course. It might be easier. I am only commenting on the basis of what I have seen over the years.

The Currie Cup 2016 final between Free State and the Blue Bulls, played in Bloemfontein on 22 October, 2016 attracted an official crowd of 43,400 as per data released by broadcaster Supersport during the game. FS won the game 36-16.
https://www.shrugbyblog.com/2016/10/22/ ... emfontein/

I think momentum is building for a long overdue African cup, in fact, from what I've been reading. Ireland ran into some administrative wranglings recently and it appears there are doubts over the main venue in Belfast. Meanwhile, the SA establishment is finally getting behind that nation's bid 110%.

They can hardly keep turning away one of the game's major super powers...

I've mentioned before, I think the only way World Rugby can ignore SA yet again without causing a huge ruckus is if they pull a swifty with a double-banger annoucement as they did for England and Japan. The latter's appointment really served as a smokescreen for the former's, which was another example of just getting the tournament back to the same corner of Europe yet again no matter what it took. Don't be surprised if they do this again - Ireland for 2023 with SA getting 2027. I don't know if that's possible. But right now I sense the Africans have the inside running for 2023 otherwise.

I imagine that the row upon row of empty seats for "rugby mad" South Africa v France might not help their cause.

Crowds were poor all round last weekend. They won't have any trouble filling the stadiums for a World Cup. I don't think they'll be basing their decision on a poor attendance for a friendly match between two under-performing sides. The Rugby Championship figures will be more relevant, as the games actually mean something.

Not that I was looking to revive old arguments. Just an observation on the basis of a few articles I've read lately. France also has a compelling bid on the table, but I just don't see them getting it again so soon. I think it'll come down to them against Ireland for 2027. Also, it's not too often a nation gets to host a major international sports tournament on its first attempt. Usually the candidates have to bid at least a couple of times and earn their stripes, so to speak... So 2027 could well come down to France v Ireland, with Argentina being forced to wait till 2031 if SA does indeed get 2023.

In fact, there might not be a 'South Africa' in 2023, if Culture Minister Nathi Mthethwa has his way. He wants to change the country's name to 'Azania,' regarding 'South Africa' as a legacy of colonial rule. 'Azania' was the Arabic word for the southern tip of the continent in pre-colonial times.

I think SA receiving 2023 and France battling Ireland for 2027, then Argentina the logical choice for 2031, followed by the loser of the France v Ireland battle (perhaps) in 2035 and the US (perhaps) in 2039 would be a fairly logical path to follow.

If France or Ireland get the next one, only one of SA or Argentina will be able to host in 2027, then you'd expect it to return to the NH in 2031, meaning either: Argentina having to wait until the mid-30s for its first bite of the cherry; or SA having been made to wait fully four decades for its second - despite being the second biggest nation in the game in terms of both numbers and results. If World Rugby goes down that road, quite a few fingers are going to be stepped on along the way.

Well, it will be interesting to see how it all unfolds anyway...