RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:34 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:29 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:21 pm

probably, who else?

I think the bench would have been more conservative anyway. It's a good job the opposition is in the order as listed. There's some building to do.

The bench maybe as much about capturing a couple of players.

If we didn't have the A-game coming up, I'd likely agree, but that match will do our capturing for us. I think this might be genuine interest in seeing how CCS and IFW do when given a bit of faith at the higher level.

Puja

CCS at this level is pretty interesting.

He's raw in pro rugby terms, but is ready made physically for test rugby. He's big, athletic and runs and tackles very angry. Ball skills and being a card risk are potential worries.

It really could go really go either way, but I can see why the setup are interested.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:27 pm

Emsworth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:24 pm Steward luckiest to get the call I reckon, given how good Furbank has been of late.

Agreed. He is the man in possession, but he's got to be under real pressure from Furbank's form - I'm just glad he didn't get shifted out to the wing to make room.

Puja

Dunno Ford and Daly are offering a lot of competition for that. Furbank is probably going to need an injury to Steward to get a look in. Furbank's uninspiring performances at fullback for England combined with Steward's dependability make it a bit of a gamble.

Like the bench though, hopefully those younger options can get some meaningful game time.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:38 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:34 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:29 pm

I think the bench would have been more conservative anyway. It's a good job the opposition is in the order as listed. There's some building to do.

The bench maybe as much about capturing a couple of players.

If we didn't have the A-game coming up, I'd likely agree, but that match will do our capturing for us. I think this might be genuine interest in seeing how CCS and IFW do when given a bit of faith at the higher level.

Puja

I'd think a proper cap is more appealing than a possible A team one, but there you go, we both are guessing

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:57 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:27 pm

Emsworth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:24 pm Steward luckiest to get the call I reckon, given how good Furbank has been of late.

Agreed. He is the man in possession, but he's got to be under real pressure from Furbank's form - I'm just glad he didn't get shifted out to the wing to make room.

Puja

Furbank's uninspiring performances at fullback for England

remind us when these were..and don't players develop?

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:41 pm CCS at this level is pretty interesting.

Ball skills are potential worries.

Lol. Overrated it seems. UNIT is what counts

That is a strong looking Italy team with a powerful pack and dangerous backs. OK- they were rather pathetic at the RWC and played way below potential. But one of these days, if they click, they could do some damage. Could be a tight game.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:23 pm That is a strong looking Italy team with a powerful pack and dangerous backs. OK- they were rather pathetic at the RWC and played way below potential. But one of these days, if they click, they could do some damage. Could be a tight game.

Agreed. I'd like to hope that we're still too good for them (and the fact that they've never beaten us is a useful shield - they don't have the belief that they can), but I think they'll be more than handy this 6N and have the definite potential to upset somebody. Not to be taken lightly.

Puja

Good to see Dombrandt was tearing up trees in training

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:13 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:57 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:27 pm

Agreed. He is the man in possession, but he's got to be under real pressure from Furbank's form - I'm just glad he didn't get shifted out to the wing to make room.

Puja

Furbank's uninspiring performances at fullback for England

remind us when these were..and don't players develop?

They certainly do and I don't think anyone will argue that he isn't in great form. Certainly bulking up a little has helped him but his first 6N was far from impressive looking particularly lost Vs Scotland in the poor weather, he quickly found himself behind the much younger Steward and then in Eddie's last 6N he came in for France game where he did nothing to suggest he should stay there and then only covered 10 after that point for Eddie and didn't impress Stupendous Baldpatch.

Steward's four years younger, has 25 caps more and has always been solid (sometimes little more mind) for England.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:53 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:13 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:57 pm

Furbank's uninspiring performances at fullback for England

remind us when these were..and don't players develop?

They certainly do and I don't think anyone will argue that he isn't in great form. Certainly bulking up a little has helped him but his first 6N was far from impressive looking particularly lost Vs Scotland in the poor weather, he quickly found himself behind the much younger Steward and then in Eddie's last 6N he came in for France game where he did nothing to suggest he should stay there and then only covered 10 after that point for Eddie and didn't impress Stupendous Baldpatch.

Steward's four years younger, has 25 caps more and has always been solid (sometimes little more mind) for England.

Furbank's uninspiring performances at 15 were.........4 years ago. When he had a lot less experience- he still only has 6 caps. Steward is very solid, but we do need more than that imo. I'm not actually saying he's the answer, but benchmarking him against appearances from 4 years ago seems odd.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:23 pm That is a strong looking Italy team with a powerful pack and dangerous backs. OK- they were rather pathetic at the RWC and played way below potential. But one of these days, if they click, they could do some damage. Could be a tight game.

Telling the coach he would be fired just after the RWC probably didn't help morale much. I reckon they'll click this 6N.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:57 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:27 pm

Emsworth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:24 pm Steward luckiest to get the call I reckon, given how good Furbank has been of late.

Agreed. He is the man in possession, but he's got to be under real pressure from Furbank's form - I'm just glad he didn't get shifted out to the wing to make room.

Puja

Dunno Ford and Daly are offering a lot of competition for that. Furbank is probably going to need an injury to Steward to get a look in. Furbank's uninspiring performances at fullback for England combined with Steward's dependability make it a bit of a gamble.

Like the bench though, hopefully those younger options can get some meaningful game time.

I don't mind Ford and Daly too much - I think they are very good international players at their best and am also a fan of continuity. Phasing them out if their form doesn't improve (Daly in particular as I think Ford was good overall for England at the RWC) is easier as the likes of Mitchell and Freeman are more settled in the side.

Steward is a strange one as he was good for a while at a young age when coming in (despite flaws that were noted). He is young enough for his game to continue to evolve - potentially the ceiling of the team would be limited with him at full back in his current state, even if he is very effective at his peak?

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 5:57 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:57 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:27 pm

Agreed. He is the man in possession, but he's got to be under real pressure from Furbank's form - I'm just glad he didn't get shifted out to the wing to make room.

Puja

Dunno Ford and Daly are offering a lot of competition for that. Furbank is probably going to need an injury to Steward to get a look in. Furbank's uninspiring performances at fullback for England combined with Steward's dependability make it a bit of a gamble.

Like the bench though, hopefully those younger options can get some meaningful game time.

I don't mind Ford and Daly too much - I think they are very good international players at their best and am also a fan of continuity. Phasing them out if their form doesn't improve (Daly in particular as I think Ford was good overall for England at the RWC) is easier as the likes of Mitchell and Freeman are more settled in the side.

Steward is a strange one as he was good for a while at a young age when coming in (despite flaws that were noted). He is young enough for his game to continue to evolve - potentially the ceiling of the team would be limited with him at full back in his current state, even if he is very effective at his peak?

Yeah, my memory of Ford at the world cup was the game against Argentina where, despite our lack of attacking smarts, we won comfortably thanks to his boot. Was it 4 drop goals? Think he was ok next game. When Farrell was available Ford was out straight away I think. He got about 2 minutes against SA to save the game and probably a few more in the 3rd place playoff.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 4:29 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:53 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:13 pm

remind us when these were..and don't players develop?

They certainly do and I don't think anyone will argue that he isn't in great form. Certainly bulking up a little has helped him but his first 6N was far from impressive looking particularly lost Vs Scotland in the poor weather, he quickly found himself behind the much younger Steward and then in Eddie's last 6N he came in for France game where he did nothing to suggest he should stay there and then only covered 10 after that point for Eddie and didn't impress Stupendous Baldpatch.

Steward's four years younger, has 25 caps more and has always been solid (sometimes little more mind) for England.

Furbank's uninspiring performances at 15 were.........4 years ago. When he had a lot less experience- he still only has 6 caps. Steward is very solid, but we do need more than that imo. I'm not actually saying he's the answer, but benchmarking him against appearances from 4 years ago seems odd.

Wasn't his last appearance at 15 against France in 2022? Just two years ago.

I think Furbank is in cracking form I just think he's unlikely to get a shot on a reshaped backline where there's a lot of inexperience when the alternative is Steward where you know he'll be solid and consistent.

Steward needs to get more touches in attack for me. We've seen him carry really effectively at international level but he doesn't do it nearly enough. He's got a decent passing game but I'd like to see him develop an offloading game and work on getting through contact and connecting with support. He adds those things consistently and he could be a mainstay for the long term and finish up with north of 100 caps.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:37 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 4:29 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:53 pm

They certainly do and I don't think anyone will argue that he isn't in great form. Certainly bulking up a little has helped him but his first 6N was far from impressive looking particularly lost Vs Scotland in the poor weather, he quickly found himself behind the much younger Steward and then in Eddie's last 6N he came in for France game where he did nothing to suggest he should stay there and then only covered 10 after that point for Eddie and didn't impress Stupendous Baldpatch.

Steward's four years younger, has 25 caps more and has always been solid (sometimes little more mind) for England.

Furbank's uninspiring performances at 15 were.........4 years ago. When he had a lot less experience- he still only has 6 caps. Steward is very solid, but we do need more than that imo. I'm not actually saying he's the answer, but benchmarking him against appearances from 4 years ago seems odd.

Wasn't his last appearance at 15 against France in 2022? Just two years ago.

I think Furbank is in cracking form I just think he's unlikely to get a shot on a reshaped backline where there's a lot of inexperience when the alternative is Steward where you know he'll be solid and consistent.

Steward needs to get more touches in attack for me. We've seen him carry really effectively at international level but he doesn't do it nearly enough. He's got a decent passing game but I'd like to see him develop an offloading game and work on getting through contact and connecting with support. He adds those things consistently and he could be a mainstay for the long term and finish up with north of 100 caps.

You made specfic reference to the 2020 6N, esp Scotland; the isolated game v France when oddly Steward played wing, he went ok in a pretty new at the time backline, with your mate marcus at 10, and Slade at 12. Either way, a long time since a proper assessment.

Steward imo lacks acceleration and top end pace at this level ...so has to be used accordingly. Have to love him under the high ball tho. Also needs to work on his footwork both sides of the ball- too leaden as the last defender.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 10:23 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:37 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 4:29 pm
Furbank's uninspiring performances at 15 were.........4 years ago. When he had a lot less experience- he still only has 6 caps. Steward is very solid, but we do need more than that imo. I'm not actually saying he's the answer, but benchmarking him against appearances from 4 years ago seems odd.

Wasn't his last appearance at 15 against France in 2022? Just two years ago.

I think Furbank is in cracking form I just think he's unlikely to get a shot on a reshaped backline where there's a lot of inexperience when the alternative is Steward where you know he'll be solid and consistent.

Steward needs to get more touches in attack for me. We've seen him carry really effectively at international level but he doesn't do it nearly enough. He's got a decent passing game but I'd like to see him develop an offloading game and work on getting through contact and connecting with support. He adds those things consistently and he could be a mainstay for the long term and finish up with north of 100 caps.

You made specfic reference to the 2020 6N, esp Scotland; the isolated game v France when oddly Steward played wing, he went ok in a pretty new at the time backline, with your mate marcus at 10, and Slade at 12. Either way, a long time since a proper assessment.

Steward imo lacks acceleration and top end pace at this level ...so has to be used accordingly. Have to love him under the high ball tho. Also needs to work on his footwork both sides of the ball- too leaden as the last defender.

I think he's got the pace but acceleration is average by international back three standards. Always likely to be an issue considering how size, he's been amongst some of the younger Tigers working with the sprint coaches at Loughborough Uni.

His footwork in attack his footwork has improved quite a bit. He seemed to struggle with Daly as a defender previously. Daly likes to bite in and Steward lacks the agility and acceleration to defend against a third of the pitch. When not left to cover significant width he's been ok. It's certainly an area he could improve.

Steward's problem is that he's a big bloke. Clearly good in the air and carries pretty well in traffic, but as you say, agility and acceleration is always going to be a big issue. He's just not the same shape as most full backs and is built more like a back row (I cant think of any other 105kg full backs!)

There will always be games like France last 6N where he has a really tough time defensively getting in the right post code to make a tackle against a good broken field team.

As Farrell departs Steward steps in as RR’s thread filler

Steward's ok but he does have limitations.

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:41 am As Farrell departs Steward steps in as RR’s thread filler

Farrell’s long-term successor at 12 I assume you mean.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:37 am

p/d wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:41 am As Farrell departs Steward steps in as RR’s thread filler

Farrell’s long-term successor at 12 I assume you mean.

The more they debate his shortcomings at fb the more apparent it becomes.

I feel my work is done

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:23 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 10:23 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:37 pm

Wasn't his last appearance at 15 against France in 2022? Just two years ago.

I think Furbank is in cracking form I just think he's unlikely to get a shot on a reshaped backline where there's a lot of inexperience when the alternative is Steward where you know he'll be solid and consistent.

Steward needs to get more touches in attack for me. We've seen him carry really effectively at international level but he doesn't do it nearly enough. He's got a decent passing game but I'd like to see him develop an offloading game and work on getting through contact and connecting with support. He adds those things consistently and he could be a mainstay for the long term and finish up with north of 100 caps.

You made specfic reference to the 2020 6N, esp Scotland; the isolated game v France when oddly Steward played wing, he went ok in a pretty new at the time backline, with your mate marcus at 10, and Slade at 12. Either way, a long time since a proper assessment.

Steward imo lacks acceleration and top end pace at this level ...so has to be used accordingly. Have to love him under the high ball tho. Also needs to work on his footwork both sides of the ball- too leaden as the last defender.

I think he's got the pace but acceleration is average by international back three standards. Always likely to be an issue considering how size, he's been amongst some of the younger Tigers working with the sprint coaches at Loughborough Uni.

His footwork in attack his footwork has improved quite a bit. He seemed to struggle with Daly as a defender previously. Daly likes to bite in and Steward lacks the agility and acceleration to defend against a third of the pitch. When not left to cover significant width he's been ok. It's certainly an area he could improve.

Yep, can always look to improve, but his size will always make him a little less than light on his feet. He's too easily left flat footed in defence though- that said, I'd always expect an international back to beat a defender 1 on 1 in open space.

I think Steward is absolutely fine at full-back. Not very long ago at all he was one of the most exciting younger players on the intl scene and for a moment, our first name on the team sheet arguably. His height might be a disadvantage in that he's a big lad and not the most nimble, but it's an asset when he goes for that high ball and dominates the space around him. He needs to get back into hitting the line at pace especially in the oppo 22, he should score a lot of tries if he does. In defence, he might be slow on the turn but generally, with a bit of coaching I'd expect him to get it right pretty often and would say I'd rather him defending there than Daly, Furbank or Malins for instance. I like the look of the injured ginger chap at Northampton though, Hendy is it? He looks like a contender.

Elsewhere in the 23, he's arguably picked the best props but has not been the most forward-thinking/progressive - difficult to argue too much with his picks in terms of outright quality though, same at hooker, same at 2nd row, I get Earl at 8, why change it? Earl at 8 has worked. Underhill was magnificent when he played the Argies, I get that too.

My complaints would be that Pearson isn't in there, who I'd rather have in the 23 than Roots, and would've played one of Pearson, Chessum or Coles at 6 probably. I'd have thought that looking at Rus Tuima or Moon at Northampton as other 2nd row options might've been more interesting than taking Roots along as a 6 but hey ho.

Care makes no sense to me, I'd have gone with Spencer, especially as you're not picking Dombrandt and Marcus Smith isn't there.

I might well have gone fully balls to wall and got Olly Hartley in there, but not sure if he's fit. Dingwall has been magnificent but I'm not sure he'll turn out to be the answer.

Let's see.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:13 pm He needs to get back into hitting the line at pace

There's the rub. Plus the other stuff

I wouldn't dream of Coles at 6 tbh- fine at club level there. He's a very good mobile lock really.

Hendy is a talent.....but an eccentric one .