Folau's folly - Owens' view

[rowan]

Nigel Owens' view:

A few years ago I sat down for hours and hours one night with a young lad, who played academy rugby then. He asked me if he could have a chat with me as he was really down and at his wits end because he’d attempted to take his own life.

And the reason why he attempted to take his own life was because he was dealing with his sexuality and he was afraid what his parents, family and friends would say. And he was afraid he’d have to give up rugby too.

I spent hours and hours with him over many weeks, saying listen, rugby will accept you for who you are like it accepted me and Gareth Thomas.

I said I can’t tell you if your parents will accept you or your friends, but I can tell you that the huge, huge majority in rugby will and I’m pretty sure that your friends and family, if they are anything like mine, will accept you no matter who you are, like mine did with me.

This was a couple of months after he attempted to take his own life. It took a few more chats and a few more months before he said he felt better and was now okay with himself and that he was coming around to accepting who he was.

He still plays rugby and he has accepted who he is but he has yet to tell his family and friends, and as I told him that choice is his and no-one else’s.
But comments like Israel Folau’s about gay people and all other types of bullying by all kinds of people is what can put people like that young boy in that moment where it’s enough to tip them over the edge, because there is a minority out there who give the impression that you cannot be who you truly are.

Continues here: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/news ... e-14501453

[Lizard]

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with Israel’s comments, what sort of an idiot do you have to be as a test rugby player to make homophobic tweets when the world’s leading ref is homosexual?

[rowan]

Welcome aboard, Stripe. I see that's your virgin post, and a most curious one indeed, if you don't mind me saying.

It's not human nature for bullied and oppressed people to commit suicide

Overall, we found that youth involved in bullying in any capacity – both bullies and victims of bullying – were more likely to think about and attempt suicide than youth who were not involved in bullying. In short, bullying is bad for everyone involved.
https://theconversation.com/bullying-an ... tion-82353

and the wrong place to go for people struggling with perversion is to someone who would encourage them down the path of destruction.



How is that relevant to the experience Nigel Owens' related?

[Stripe]

Welcome aboard, Stripe.

Ta.

I see that's your virgin post.

I wanted to join when we won the World Cup, but I'm a chronic procrastinator.

A most curious one indeed.

People aren't used to right-wing views.

Overall, we found that youth involved in bullying in any capacity – both bullies and victims of bullying.

That both sides report an increase is a clue that my comment might have validity. Certainly in areas where real oppression was or is levied against people: Christians, Jews, blacks, Muslims, Falun Gong, etc, there is no increase in suicide rates. Meanwhile, suicide is most prevalent in places like Japan.

The link between bullying and suicide among homosexuals is probably just camouflage for the real cause of despair.

How is that relevant to the experience Nigel Owens' related?

I thought it was obvious.

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[rowan]

Meanwhile, suicide is most prevalent in places like Japan.


No expert on this, but I believe Sweden and New Zealand are two countries with high suicide rates - the former because they go for months without much daylight; the latter mostly concerning Maori and youth. I'd have to do some research to comment further, but that could be a little depressing...

[Lizard]

Strong debut, Stripe. Many new members would ease in with some comment on the actual game of rugby union football, but you’re straight in with 19th century quality prejudice. Nice.

For the record, and for any other lurkers out there, I’d like to say that by-and-large Rugby Rebels is a fairly tolerant and welcoming forum for rugby fans of all types. I’ve been on this board (and it’s predecessors) for well over a decade and I’m pleased to say that old-fashioned “banter” using slurs against gay people has practically disappeared, without much need for mods etc to step in.

(Even Rowan has been able to curb his horrendously sexist sense of “humour” somewhat.)

While you are welcome to voice your opinions in a reasonable manner, please be aware of the rules and treat others with respect and courtesy.

I strongly suggest you read Nigel Owens’ autobiography if you want to understand the links between depression, suicidal tendencies, homosexuality and society’s attitudes towards it.

[Stripe]

Strong debut, Stripe. Many new members would ease in with some comment on the actual game of rugby union football, but you’re straight in with 19th century quality prejudice. Nice.

It's 2018. It's the way things are these days.

For the record, and for any other lurkers out there, I’d like to say that by-and-large Rugby Rebels is a fairly tolerant and welcoming forum for rugby fans of all types. I’ve been on this board (and it’s predecessors) for well over a decade and I’m pleased to say that old-fashioned “banter” using slurs against gay people has practically disappeared, without much need for mods etc to step in.

Do you know what AIG stands for?

I strongly suggest you read Nigel Owens’ autobiography if you want to understand the links between depression, suicidal tendencies, homosexuality and society’s attitudes towards it.

I read the piece at the top of this thread. It linked bullying to suicide among homosexuals, but even the anecdote did not back up his case.

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[Mellsblue]

This is bottom of the tree.

[morepork]

Meanwhile, suicide is most prevalent in places like Japan.


No expert on this, but I believe Sweden and New Zealand are two countries with high suicide rates - the former because they go for months without much daylight; the latter mostly concerning Maori and youth. I'd have to do some research to comment further, but that could be a little depressing...

I would be wary of attributing causes to anything so mundane as sunlight, even if there were a strong correlation shown across multiple nations. Wiki puts New Zealand at No. 54 at Sweden at 46, but comparing nations on things like this is notoriously difficult.

I prefer to stick to language and ideas that everyone should agree on: A man has to be in the pits of despair to contemplate suicide. That it is prevalent among homosexuals is good reason to consider the possibility that a lifestyle that leads to destruction might be bad for you.

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Fucking hell. Back the truck up chief.

[Stripe]

Back the truck up chief.

Uh. OK, what?

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[cashead]

Delete your account.

[Stripe]

Delete your account.

Nah. You delete yours.

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[Puja]

What I find utterly adorable is the "People aren't used to right wing views" bit. He's a little oppressed minority, put upon by "political correctness", "SJWs", and the sad fact that society now disapproves of being a colossal tool to people who aren't like him. Poor little soul.

Puja

[kk67]

What I find utterly adorable is the "People aren't used to right wing views" bit. He's a little oppressed minority, put upon by "political correctness", "SJWs", and the sad fact that society now disapproves of being a colossal tool to people who aren't like him. Poor little soul.

Puja

There's an element of truth to it,.....people aren't used to right wing views because it's always socially maladapted morons that wants to exploit someone else for profit.
Generally, people are decent and they find it hard to believe that other people can be so mercenary.

Our rural community are a perfect example. Literally turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Puja]

What I find utterly adorable is the "People aren't used to right wing views" bit. He's a little oppressed minority, put upon by "political correctness", "SJWs", and the sad fact that society now disapproves of being a colossal tool to people who aren't like him. Poor little soul.

Puja

There's an element of truth to it,.....people aren't used to right wing views because it's always socially maladapted morons that wants to exploit someone else for profit.
Generally, people are decent and they find it hard to believe that other people can be so mercenary.

Our rural community are a perfect example. Literally turkeys voting for Christmas.

The term has now been utterly co-opted by the loons. It's perfectly possible to be right wing and good - nothing morally wrong with believing in a smaller state, greater incentives for entrepreneurship and growth, etc. However, normal people now can't say they're right wing, because they have to share the stage with people like this guy. "I'm a free-thinker; I push back against the tide of society being decent to people. I'm an individual!"

Puja

[kk67]

It's too cheap to have a go. The guy's clearly a hick.

[cashead]

Delete your account.

Nah. You delete yours.

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No really. Because you come in with shit like "maybe gays shouldn't choose to be gay because then that kills them," and not expect to be called on that? I'm doing you a favour by telling you to delete your account. Either that, or have a sea-change in your views because you won't last long. You'll become a pariah, a laughing stock, a wind-up lightning rod that takes the heat off of rowan for a while, and then someone will, with little effort, bait you into saying bigoted shit again, and you'll be banned.

So fix your stupid fucking broken perspective, you cunt, or delete your account.



And for the record, I am a first port of call for bullied LGBT teens where I work. You have no fucking clue what you're mouthing off about.

[Stripe]

Delete your account.

Nah. You delete yours.

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No really. Because you come in with shit like "maybe gays shouldn't choose to be gay because then that kills them," and not expect to be called on that?

I expect to be held to account for what I actually say.

I'm doing you a favour by telling you to delete your account. Either that, or have a sea-change in your views because you won't last long. You'll become a pariah, a laughing stock, a wind-up lightning rod that takes the heat off of rowan for a while, and then someone will, with little effort, bait you into saying bigoted shit again, and you'll be banned.

When all this happens, feel free to tell everyone that you told me so.

So fix your stupid fucking broken perspective, you cunt, or delete your account.

Can I assume that this sort of invective is always tolerated here?

And for the record, I am a first port of call for bullied LGBT teens where I work. You have no fucking clue what you're mouthing off about.

Sounds like you might have something useful to contribute then.

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[Puja]

That's right precious. You keep fighting the good fight against those mean forces of progressivism. Never forget - you're the real hero here.

Puja

[rowan]

What a circus World Rugby is becoming. Interesting point also about Mathieu Bastareaud being banned for calling a rival a faggot in the heat of battle, while Israel Folau gets let off for repeatedly condemning homosexuality in general. Perhaps it's his Christian name which makes him immune to punishment

World Rugby have no plans to implement a fresh crackdown on homophobia despite a spate of controversies.

Australia full back Israel Folau reiterated yesterday the religious beliefs which underpinned his comment earlier this month that gay people would go to hell 'unless they repent their sins'.

Read more:
Israel Folau stands by comments on homosexuality, says he offered to walk away from rugby union

The storm caused by his outburst followed France centre Mathieu Bastareaud's ban for calling an Italian rival a 'faggot', and Sale's England wing Denny Solomona was last week contentiously found guilty of using similarly inflammatory language in a match.

Under World Rugby's law 9.12, sanctions can be imposed on a player who is deemed to have engaged in verbal abuse which 'includes, but is not limited to, abuse based on; religion, colour, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation'.

According to the governing body's chief executive, Brett Gosper, the current measures are sufficient and must be utilised with care.

'We have a strong enough position already,' the Australian told the Daily Mail. 'We are a very inclusive sport and we are clear on these issues. There has to be a balance in terms of freedom of speech as well. There are laws of inclusion and laws about freedom of speech, so it is very difficult, but rugby is clearly an inclusive sport in every way.'



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=12034058

[Stripe]

What a circus World Rugby is becoming. Interesting point also about Mathieu Bastareaud being banned for calling a rival a faggot in the heat of battle, while Israel Folau gets let off for repeatedly condemning homosexuality in general. Perhaps it's his Christian name which makes him immune to punishment.

Or perhaps the two incidents are utterly unalike.

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[rowan]

Yes, Israel's offense was a lot more serious, demonstrating a preconceived prejudice, whereas the Bastareaud was just repeating a homophobic slur he was undoubtedly hearing from others all the time (given he used an English term, not a French one) in the heat of battle.

[cashead]

[rowan]

Last line spoiled this for me . . .

Land Rover have taken back their sponsored car from controversial Aussie rugby star Israel Folau.
The flash car was part of a $850,000 deal Land Rover had with Rugby Australia, reports the Sydney Daily Telegraph.
Land Rover, who said Folau was never an official ambassador, repossessed the car after Folau's anti-gay sentiments on social media.
In February last year Dan Carter was dropped as a brand ambassador for Land Rover following his drink driving incident in France.
Folau won't be catching the bus to Waratahs training any time soon though — he still gets around in style in his $500,000 Lamborghini, bought last year.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/a ... ref=NZH_fb