RugbyRebels

Reckon Eddie’s given him the nod?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/reports- ... ave-toulon

How's his defence been in the Top 14?

Another good result for our selection policies. Not sure whether he's needed for England when everyone's fit, but I'd far rather have him than Brown on the wing!

Puja

Puja wrote:Another good result for our selection policies. Not sure whether he's needed for England when everyone's fit, but I'd far rather have him than Brown on the wing!

Puja

You know, I don't think I can agree with this. May I inquire why?

Or, to put it another way, what does Ashton bring other than the ability to run nice lines at an acceptable speed and comedically bad tackling?

If I were Jones, I’d pass.

Peat wrote:

Puja wrote:Another good result for our selection policies. Not sure whether he's needed for England when everyone's fit, but I'd far rather have him than Brown on the wing!

Puja

You know, I don't think I can agree with this. May I inquire why?

Or, to put it another way, what does Ashton bring other than the ability to run nice lines at an acceptable speed and comedically bad tackling?

He's an excellent finisher, has a very good sense of positioning to get himself in the right place at the right time and has got a nice turn of pace. His defence isn't brilliant, but he's not a Campese style swinging door. People might occasionally run over him, but he doesn't often get run round - given how narrow our defence is, I think that'd be preferable to the front-on solidity of Brown.

I think he's underrated by people on here (if overrated by the media/himself) - he's very far from world class, but he could do a job.

Puja

I just posted on this in the transfer thread so to summarise.

Eddie normally picks 4 wingers. Right now Ashton would probably be 5th choice behind Daly, Watson, May and Nowell, but more often than not at least one of those is injured, so he has a fairly good chance of being selected.

If Daly is being groomed for the 15 shirt, he potentially goes up to 4th choice.

Puja wrote:

Peat wrote:

Puja wrote:Another good result for our selection policies. Not sure whether he's needed for England when everyone's fit, but I'd far rather have him than Brown on the wing!

Puja

You know, I don't think I can agree with this. May I inquire why?

Or, to put it another way, what does Ashton bring other than the ability to run nice lines at an acceptable speed and comedically bad tackling?

He's an excellent finisher, has a very good sense of positioning to get himself in the right place at the right time and has got a nice turn of pace. His defence isn't brilliant, but he's not a Campese style swinging door. People might occasionally run over him, but he doesn't often get run round - given how narrow our defence is, I think that'd be preferable to the front-on solidity of Brown.

I think he's underrated by people on here (if overrated by the media/himself) - he's very far from world class, but he could do a job.

Puja

He spent 4 years pretty consistently failing to do that job.

He finishes and that's it. I dislike Brown as an England winger quite intensely because he's not quick enough, but Ashton is just not good enough at anything other than getting into position to finish off tries. Neither's an international winger.

Scoring tries by being in the right position is quite a knack. Ashton may not be the most rounded footballer - and i have doubts about his ticker - but the ability to be in the right place at the right time and regularly score is not a trait to be sniffed at.
He'd be a decent acquisition for a few prem clubs.
England recall? I wouldnt rule it out but he starts quite a way down the list as it currently stands.

He requires the right sort of team around him, perfectly one making half breaks often, and willing to offload. That doesn't really remind me of England, when we make a break, it's either isolated on the wing (where I doubt he'd be there in support), or seemingly reasonably well supported regardless (Farrells try for instance).

Plus, as George Ford showed twice, his legs appear to have gone.

Yarde or Ashton? Preferably, neither, of course. I'd pick Wade ahead of both.

Peat wrote:

Puja wrote:

Peat wrote:
You know, I don't think I can agree with this. May I inquire why?

Or, to put it another way, what does Ashton bring other than the ability to run nice lines at an acceptable speed and comedically bad tackling?

He's an excellent finisher, has a very good sense of positioning to get himself in the right place at the right time and has got a nice turn of pace. His defence isn't brilliant, but he's not a Campese style swinging door. People might occasionally run over him, but he doesn't often get run round - given how narrow our defence is, I think that'd be preferable to the front-on solidity of Brown.

I think he's underrated by people on here (if overrated by the media/himself) - he's very far from world class, but he could do a job.

Puja

He spent 4 years pretty consistently failing to do that job.

He finishes and that's it. I dislike Brown as an England winger quite intensely because he's not quick enough, but Ashton is just not good enough at anything other than getting into position to finish off tries. Neither's an international winger.

Really though? As I recall, his initial international career from 2010-2012 was very successful and he was running at just under a try a game (despite playing outside the likes of Shontayne Hape). He then earned the ire of the board by continually getting picked without form for 12-13 and 13-14.

So I'll give you 2 years of failing to do the job, but he has been a success as an international winger before and to say "He just finishes and gets in position to score trie" is skimming over the fact where those are pretty important things for a winger to do.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that he's better than both Solomona and Earle, so he would be on this tour if available.

Puja

Who was he running in those tries against? 9 of his 16 tries in that test period were against Italy, Georgia and Romania. 3 others were against Scotland and Wales (when Wales were beasting themselves in the leadup for the 2011 world cup I believe).

He can score tries, but his record really isn't all that great if you ignore the 9 tries in 3 games against tier 2 opposition.

Puja wrote:

Peat wrote:

Puja wrote:
He's an excellent finisher, has a very good sense of positioning to get himself in the right place at the right time and has got a nice turn of pace. His defence isn't brilliant, but he's not a Campese style swinging door. People might occasionally run over him, but he doesn't often get run round - given how narrow our defence is, I think that'd be preferable to the front-on solidity of Brown.

I think he's underrated by people on here (if overrated by the media/himself) - he's very far from world class, but he could do a job.

Puja

He spent 4 years pretty consistently failing to do that job.

He finishes and that's it. I dislike Brown as an England winger quite intensely because he's not quick enough, but Ashton is just not good enough at anything other than getting into position to finish off tries. Neither's an international winger.

Really though? As I recall, his initial international career from 2010-2012 was very successful and he was running at just under a try a game (despite playing outside the likes of Shontayne Hape). He then earned the ire of the board by continually getting picked without form for 12-13 and 13-14.

So I'll give you 2 years of failing to do the job, but he has been a success as an international winger before and to say "He just finishes and gets in position to score trie" is skimming over the fact where those are pretty important things for a winger to do.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that he's better than both Solomona and Earle, so he would be on this tour if available.

Puja

Post World Cup he had 4 tries in 21 games. Up to the World Cup he was good (although Raggs' caveat about who he scored his tries against is a good one), post it he was bad. I was wrong about 4 years because I thought his career went on longer than it did - but post World Cup, he was crap.

And I don't buy that being down to form either. He was still scoring for his club. He was just very obviously not international calibre. Wasn't helped by a system that didn't play to his strength, but it was also abundantly clear that he had nothing other than that one strength.

Which is why I regard his ability to get in position to score tries as utterly unimportant. Any particular single skillset is unimportant compared to having the game to make an impact at international level. One brief burst when nobody had figured him out and a team was playing exactly to his abilities aside, he doesn't.

And I'm not sure he is better than Solomona. At least Solomona can make his own tries.

Peat wrote:
And I'm not sure he is better than Solomona. At least Solomona can make his own tries.

I expect that if Solomona can improve his defence from comical to merely crap then we'll have a player who's a better player already than the current version of Ashton. If he can then improve to meh then I'd like a proper look at him in an Eng shirt. He may well be a contender post 2019 WC.

I think Ashton is being judged pretty harshly here. I would agree that he needs a team playing to his strengths to get the best out of him, but you could say the same about plenty of less prolific wingers.

Whether we like it or not, Wade isn’t in the conversation so that leaves our wingers as:

Daly
Watson
May
Nowell
Solomona
Earle
Yarde

Where Ashton would fit in to that list is harder to say, but personally I think he’s better than a few of those.

As a direct comparison, Solomona is a quicker, more explosive and is a natural finisher. That said, Ashton is a proven try scorer at test level and Solomona has a bit a way to go to prove himself as a test player. Solomona will quite possibly end up as the better player but if I had to pick one of them to start a test tomorrow, I’d go for Ashton.

Scrumhead wrote:I think Ashton is being judged pretty harshly here. I would agree that he needs a team playing to his strengths to get the best out of him, but you could say the same about plenty of less prolific wingers.

Whether we like it or not, Wade isn’t in the conversation so that leaves our wingers as:

Daly
Watson
May
Nowell
Solomona
Earle
Yarde

Where Ashton would fit in to that list is harder to say, but personally I think he’s better than a few of those.

As a direct comparison, Solomona is a quicker, more explosive and is a natural finisher. That said, Ashton is a proven try scorer at test level and Solomona has a bit a way to go to prove himself as a test player. Solomona will quite possibly end up as the better player but if I had to pick one of them to start a test tomorrow, I’d go for Ashton.

Ashton is better than Earle, I'll give you that. At this stage, he's better than Cokaganisa, too. But Daly, Watson, May, Nowell, Yarde and Solomona are all better than he is.

It's like the calls for Varndell a few years back. Great try scoring club wing. Not an international.

Scrumhead wrote:I think Ashton is being judged pretty harshly here. I would agree that he needs a team playing to his strengths to get the best out of him, but you could say the same about plenty of less prolific wingers.

Whether we like it or not, Wade isn’t in the conversation...

I think a lot of people clamouring for Wade ignore that he also needs a team playing to his strengths to get the best out of him. In fact, I'd argue he also needs a game playing to his strengths - if he's cut off, then he contributes nothing to a side. It's why I've stopped calling for his selection for England - we just can't afford to carry a passenger if the game doesn't suit him.

Whereas Ashton, even when he wasn't suited to Burt's England, did actually develop a very solid kick-chasing game to still offer something.

Also, let's not forget Rokoduguni in our wing selections. Once he's fit again, he'll slot in just below Nowell and ahead of Ashton, Earle, Drunkie Dennie, etc.

Puja

It will be interesting to see how cokansiga goes in a non relegation side. Also I can't imagine lewington not racking up the tries at sarries.

Pat Lam liked him and we have money/space for him, can't see him joining Bristol though.

Scrumhead wrote:That said, Ashton is a proven try scorer at test level and Solomona has a bit a way to go to prove himself as a test player.

A generous label for a man who managed 1 every 5 over his last three years as an international. May, Watson, Daly, Yarde and Nowell all run hotter than 1 in 3. And I don't think its all that harsh to say that when a player stops doing something at international level for two years, the proof is no longer there that they can do it, particularly in a position like wing where players regularly have hot spurts then stop looking like internationals.

And I don't think this any of this is harsh. I think it's a fair representation of just how completely ineffectual he was post 2011. Maybe he'd be better than some of the wingers in the England set up - but the guys we're comparing him to, it's like asking whether its better to have a cat or a dog vomit on your shoes. It's a debate you never want to be meaningful.

Might as well hand out recalls to Tom Wood and Alex Goode too.

Can’t see him pushing past Daly, Watson, May or Nowell. They’re all just much better international players. It seemed like Roko had begun to change Eddie’s mind before his injury too.

twitchy wrote:It will be interesting to see how cokansiga goes in a non relegation side. Also I can't imagine lewington not racking up the tries at sarries.

Agreed. I think Lewington could do very well at Sarries. Whether that puts him in the mix for England pre-World Cup is debatable but a couple of good, injury free seasons with Sarries could put him on the radar for sure.

Peat wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:That said, Ashton is a proven try scorer at test level and Solomona has a bit a way to go to prove himself as a test player.

A generous label for a man who managed 1 every 5 over his last three years as an international. May, Watson, Daly, Yarde and Nowell all run hotter than 1 in 3. And I don't think its all that harsh to say that when a player stops doing something at international level for two years, the proof is no longer there that they can do it, particularly in a position like wing where players regularly have hot spurts then stop looking like internationals.

And I don't think this any of this is harsh. I think it's a fair representation of just how completely ineffectual he was post 2011. Maybe he'd be better than some of the wingers in the England set up - but the guys we're comparing him to, it's like asking whether its better to have a cat or a dog vomit on your shoes. It's a debate you never want to be meaningful.

Might as well hand out recalls to Tom Wood and Alex Goode too.

I thought I was pretty clearly comparing Ashton to Solomona.

I’m not suggesting he’s any better than 5th/6th choice at best (and TBH I’d forgotten Roko) and at no point did I suggest recalling him.