Help - Lions 36

[whatisthejava]

Im playing in a mini league with some mates, to see who can pick the most right names of the lions 36.

SO its not who would i take, but who do i think the coaches would take

here is my 34

Im missing 2 names

As far as i see it
re hooker
Jamie George has credit in the bank but no one speaking for him
Stuart McInally is just back from injury but is well respected by Toony and Gatland
F Brown - nope
G Turner - nope
Herring - nope
Kellecher - cant see him going as he cant consistently get passed Herring
G Turner - exciting in the lose but the lineout against Ireland was poor
D Cherry -a fools dream


RE TH
(This is because i believe porter is going to cover LH)
K Sinclar - Doesnt have the coaches in the room
Z Fargerson - Red card against him but had an exellent tournament otherwise and is aggressive in the lose
Francis - Gatland likes him and is around the other 2, also a CC medal


Lions

Captain - AWJ
Forwards
LH
(W) (scarlets) Wyn
(S) (edinburgh) Sutherland
Hookers
(E) (exeter) Cowan D
(W) (Scarlets) Owens
()
TH
(I) (leinster) Porter -- covers both sides so they say
(I) (leinster) Furlong
()
Locks
(E) (Saracens) Itoje
(W) (Ospresy) AWJ
(I) (Leinster) Ryan
(I) (Ulster) Henderson
(S) (Exeter) J Gray
BR
(I) (Munster) Beirne
(S) (Edinburgh) Watson
(W) (Bath) Faletau
(E) (sale) Curry
(I) (Munster) CJ
(W) (cardiff) Navidi

Backs
SH
(S) (Glasgow) Price
(I) (Munster) Murray
(W)(Scarlets) G Davies
FH
(S)(Racing Metro) Russell
(E)(Saracens) Farrell
(W)(Northampton) Biggar
Centre
(I)(Leinster) Henshaw
(S)(Glouchester) Harris
(I)(Leinster) Ringrose
(W)(scarlets) JD
(S)(Bath) Redpath -- Not sure Tualigi fits Toonie and Slade is another 13
Wing
(W)(Gloucester) Zammit -- No point taking May and Zammit
(S)(Edinburgh) VDM
(E)(Bath) A Watson
(W)(Cardiff) Adams
FB
(S)(Exter) Hogg
(W)(Scarlets) L Williams

[Big D]

They will take 3 of either prop IMO.
Kyle Sinckler is a cert.
Jamie George will probably get the call.
The coaches name checked Tuilagi.
I still think Underhill will be in contention.
Can't see Redpath making it but then I do have a wasted fiver on Sam Johnson who also wont make it.

[Puja]

Remember Sinckler went on the last tour, so he's known to Gatland.

Puja

[Digby]

Sinckler's back was one of the key features of the tour

[whatisthejava]

Ive written Sincklers name down 3x and removed it 3x.
I dont think he was great in the 6N and considering how much the coach chat influences how many people will he have speaking up for him,

I also think the english players will get the leas representation because they lost to all 3home nations and it would beenfit both Farrell (who is expected to join now) and Townsend to have as many irish and scots players available

I reckon Zander may well get the nod from Townsend, Farrell and Tandy

Re tualigi
I get the name check of the coaches, but its a Townsend attack, why would he go for a big 12 when he has tended to avoid them, I know Scotland hasnt every had massive 12s, but Matt Scott cant get near the scotland team who is our biggest 12. Townsend will also want key individuals he knows and trusts, which is why i have soo many scots in the backs, he will want to make sure that he has voices helping to help his attack on the tour

[whatisthejava]

I really dont think you can underestimate Farrell and Townsend wanting to expose as many of their players to the other teams strengths and weaknesses pre RWC.

[Big D]

Ive written Sincklers name down 3x and removed it 3x.
I dont think he was great in the 6N and considering how much the coach chat influences how many people will he have speaking up for him,

I also think the english players will get the leas representation because they lost to all 3home nations and it would beenfit both Farrell (who is expected to join now) and Townsend to have as many irish and scots players available

I reckon Zander may well get the nod from Townsend, Farrell and Tandy

Re tualigi
I get the name check of the coaches, but its a Townsend attack, why would he go for a big 12 when he has tended to avoid them, I know Scotland hasnt every had massive 12s, but Matt Scott cant get near the scotland team who is our biggest 12. Townsend will also want key individuals he knows and trusts, which is why i have soo many scots in the backs, he will want to make sure that he has voices helping to help his attack on the tour

Sinckler is still easily one of the best 3 tight heads. They had a poor 6N but he is a relatively proven international level player. Last years victories don't disappear because they had a poor 6N. Unlike previous tours with Scotland many of the English guys have money in the bank with proven performances.

Townsend isn't going to just pick Scots because he trusts them. The game plan will be one that Gatland is comfortable with. All those you have in the backs will be in the discussion but Redpath on the back of one 6N game would be a big stretch. I wouldn't get your hopes up for as big a Scottish representation as you have.

Not sure why you would only discuss Tuilagi as a 12. I would guess he has played more international rugby at 13. And Townsend has been more than happy with his bigger 13.

[Big D]

I really dont think you can underestimate Farrell and Townsend wanting to expose as many of their players to the other teams strengths and weaknesses pre RWC.

Both, but especially Townsend will have designs on being the HC for the Oz tour in 2025. He has been a Lion and understands what the Lions is about. If they select Scots it will be because he feels they deserve it rather than some plot to see Irish players weaknesses or seeing 2nd/3rd string Saffa players during the dirt tracker games. If the coaches and players can't work that out through videos and regularly playing them then we are in trouble.

And to be honest I'd think less of him if he did.

And Andy Farrell would be the sole Irish coach involved. For him to significantly influence selection (if he joins up before Thursday) then several others would have had to agree with him.

[whatisthejava]

I really dont think you can underestimate Farrell and Townsend wanting to expose as many of their players to the other teams strengths and weaknesses pre RWC.

Both, but especially Townsend will have designs on being the HC for the Oz tour in 2025. He has been a Lion and understands what the Lions is about. If they select Scots it will be because he feels they deserve it rather than some plot to see Irish players weaknesses or seeing 2nd/3rd string Saffa players during the dirt tracker games. If the coaches and players can't work that out through videos and regularly playing them then we are in trouble.

And to be honest I'd think less of him if he did.

And Andy Farrell would be the sole Irish coach involved. For him to significantly influence selection (if he joins up before Thursday) then several others would have had to agree with him.

Both Townsend and Farrell have to go back to the day jobs, how do they turn round to the players they pick next 6N and say - go beat a bunch of guys that I dont think your as good as. These guys dont exist in a bubble, Toony and Farrell may both want to be head coach in 2025, to do that they need to still be in a job and that means keeping the dressing room.

Wales have always had decent representation even when they didnt quite deserve the numbers, why because Gatland knew that he had to go back and look those guys in the face

[Big D]

I really dont think you can underestimate Farrell and Townsend wanting to expose as many of their players to the other teams strengths and weaknesses pre RWC.

Both, but especially Townsend will have designs on being the HC for the Oz tour in 2025. He has been a Lion and understands what the Lions is about. If they select Scots it will be because he feels they deserve it rather than some plot to see Irish players weaknesses or seeing 2nd/3rd string Saffa players during the dirt tracker games. If the coaches and players can't work that out through videos and regularly playing them then we are in trouble.

And to be honest I'd think less of him if he did.

And Andy Farrell would be the sole Irish coach involved. For him to significantly influence selection (if he joins up before Thursday) then several others would have had to agree with him.

Both Townsend and Farrell have to go back to the day jobs, how do they turn round to the players they pick next 6N and say - go beat a bunch of guys that I dont think your as good as. These guys dont exist in a bubble, Toony and Farrell may both want to be head coach in 2025, to do that they need to still be in a job and that means keeping the dressing room.

Wales have always had decent representation even when they didnt quite deserve the numbers, why because Gatland knew that he had to go back and look those guys in the face

There have also been substantially more Welsh representation in the coaching staff. Even if Townsend and Tandy put up the most passionate reason why any one Scot should tour, if Gatland, McBryde and Jenkins all say "nah player y is the man" then it will be player y. Scotland still lost to Wales and Ireland this year, and to Ireland 3 times in the last year and a bit. Townsend hasn't been afraid of facing down players and I am sure if any player was unhappy they'll probably get a personal call from Townsend this week to explain. He has the easy out to say "well I wanted you in but others didn't".

Scots have moaned for tours and tours, back to 2001 about coaches picking favourites. It would be hypocritical of me to want or expect Townsend to do the same.

[Stom]

Doesn't matter how poorly you think England played in the 6N, Mako Vunipola, George, Sinckler will go. Billy Vunipola will most likely go. How you have Harris in there, I have no idea... LRZ over May? Really? VDM?

You've got 1 too many centres, I feel. I reckon there'll be another backrow. Probably Underhill.

[whatisthejava]

Doesn't matter how poorly you think England played in the 6N, Mako Vunipola, George, Sinckler will go. Billy Vunipola will most likely go. How you have Harris in there, I have no idea... LRZ over May? Really? VDM?

You've got 1 too many centres, I feel. I reckon there'll be another backrow. Probably Underhill.

Will find out in a few days ,

[Stom]

The thing is, we can squabble about a few spots, but the vast majority are pretty much sewn up.

The only questions are how many locks and how many backrows, how many wings v centres, and if Tuilagi is considered fit enough.

[Big D]

Doesn't matter how poorly you think England played in the 6N, Mako Vunipola, George, Sinckler will go. Billy Vunipola will most likely go. How you have Harris in there, I have no idea... LRZ over May? Really? VDM?

You've got 1 too many centres, I feel. I reckon there'll be another backrow. Probably Underhill.

I am not convinced that both Vunipola's will go if everyone else is fit. I think Billy is too one dimensional and that is the dimension the South Africans enjoy, and Mako is good around the park but his set piece isn't as good as some. Then there is the Sarries playing at a lower level of rugby. can the Lions really gamble on 5 or 6 Sarries getting up to speed in the 6 warm up games? George, Itoje and Farrell are certs to go.

There is a case that can be made for Harris to go. Not all tourists need to be test contenders. He knows and understands the defensive systems the Lions will be installing. Having a player in a key position that understands the systems to help others get up to speed quickly is a good thing to have. With North out having a player that can cover 13 and wing for the midweek team helps also helps preserve space in the squad for others. Players who can play two positions may be viewed favourably, especially in s smaller squad on a shorter tour where calling guys in and out will be more difficult which would boost the likes of Lawes and Harris.

Every fan of every nation will have their favourites, but I'd say there is a case for LRZ over May. LRZ has taken to international rugby like a duck to water. I think May will probably go but it wouldn't be the biggest shock if he didn't IMO.

[whatisthejava]

Doesn't matter how poorly you think England played in the 6N, Mako Vunipola, George, Sinckler will go. Billy Vunipola will most likely go. How you have Harris in there, I have no idea... LRZ over May? Really? VDM?

You've got 1 too many centres, I feel. I reckon there'll be another backrow. Probably Underhill.

I don’t get the not picking Harris, was superhuman versus France. If JD had played that well we would be talking about him as a lions starter.

[Timbo]

Gatland is nobody’s fool, he ain’t picking a squad to appease one of his unit coaches or to make things easier for Townsend when he goes back to Scotland. Townsend/Tandy/whoever will get the players Gatland gives them and be expected to, by and large, implement the game plan Gatland thinks will beat the Boks.

Sinks and George will be going, and if there’s a reasonable expectation that Tuilagi will be fit he’ll be going too.

[Timbo]

► Show Spoiler

Doesn't matter how poorly you think England played in the 6N, Mako Vunipola, George, Sinckler will go. Billy Vunipola will most likely go. How you have Harris in there, I have no idea... LRZ over May? Really? VDM?

You've got 1 too many centres, I feel. I reckon there'll be another backrow. Probably Underhill.

I am not convinced that both Vunipola's will go if everyone else is fit. I think Billy is too one dimensional and that is the dimension the South Africans enjoy, and Mako is good around the park but his set piece isn't as good as some. Then there is the Sarries playing at a lower level of rugby. can the Lions really gamble on 5 or 6 Sarries getting up to speed in the 6 warm up games? George, Itoje and Farrell are certs to go.

I probably wouldn’t take Billy, but it’s a fact that without him the Lions will be giving away a lot of size and power in the back 5 of the scrum.

At loosehead, my first choices would be Sutherland and Marler as they’re by far the best two scrummagers. But I’m doubtful that either will be available; Marler through personal reasons and Sutherland through injury. In which case Mako has to go as one of the 3 I think.

[whatisthejava]

BV when fully fit is awesome, he wasn’t at the start of the 6N and he looked it. 4 games against Doncaster and the rest of the championship isn’t changing that. The guys that stuck with sarries can blame no one if they ain’t picked.

The idea that Gatland is an autocrat is nonsense. He listens to his coaches and then they combine together thoughts and processes.

Otherwise struggling to put any context into the discussions around coaches squads and why toonie et al isn’t sitting at home when Gatland goes to every game.

[Big D]

I probably wouldn’t take Billy, but it’s a fact that without him the Lions will be giving away a lot of size and power in the back 5 of the scrum.

At loosehead, my first choices would be Sutherland and Marler as they’re by far the best two scrummagers. But I’m doubtful that either will be available; Marler through personal reasons and Sutherland through injury. In which case Mako has to go as one of the 3 I think.

But that is sort of my point. His power has been fairly one dimensional lately. The Saffa pack wont be phased by that. At this stage I'd rather put Bierne at 6 to provide bulk in the back row.

All that being said as unpopular as the Lions are to some Scots due to lack of representation, I still love the concept and hope whoever is picked plays well.

[Timbo]

BV when fully fit is awesome, he wasn’t at the start of the 6N and he looked it. 4 games against Doncaster and the rest of the championship isn’t changing that. The guys that stuck with sarries can blame no one if they ain’t picked.

The idea that Gatland is an autocrat is nonsense. He listens to his coaches and then they combine together thoughts and processes.

Otherwise struggling to put any context into the discussions around coaches squads and why toonie et al isn’t sitting at home when Gatland goes to every game.

I did’t say he’s an autocrat, but he has the final say. I’m yet to see a Gatland team that didn’t have a lot of the same key characteristics. Particularly against a team like the Boks I’m certain Gats will have a very clear idea in his mind about the type of game plan and players he’s going to need. That, to me, is 100% going to favour bigger more powerful athletes and experienced heads. So that includes quite a few of those Saracens players, Sexton, JD2 and even someone like Halfpenny.

[Timbo]

I probably wouldn’t take Billy, but it’s a fact that without him the Lions will be giving away a lot of size and power in the back 5 of the scrum.

At loosehead, my first choices would be Sutherland and Marler as they’re by far the best two scrummagers. But I’m doubtful that either will be available; Marler through personal reasons and Sutherland through injury. In which case Mako has to go as one of the 3 I think.

But that is sort of my point. His power has been fairly one dimensional lately. The Saffa pack wont be phased by that. At this stage I'd rather put Bierne at 6 to provide bulk in the back row.

All that being said as unpopular as the Lions are to some Scots due to lack of representation, I still love the concept and hope whoever is picked plays well.

Yes, as I said it’s hard to justify taking him. In many ways it would be a negative selection because you’re worried about the power of the Boks. If you’re confident in the ability of the more in form backrowers/back 5 of the scrum to handle it then he doesn’t go.

[whatisthejava]

BV when fully fit is awesome, he wasn’t at the start of the 6N and he looked it. 4 games against Doncaster and the rest of the championship isn’t changing that. The guys that stuck with sarries can blame no one if they ain’t picked.

The idea that Gatland is an autocrat is nonsense. He listens to his coaches and then they combine together thoughts and processes.

Otherwise struggling to put any context into the discussions around coaches squads and why toonie et al isn’t sitting at home when Gatland goes to every game.

I did’t say he’s an autocrat,.

What do you think - ‘haw lads this is my 36, coach as I say’ approach to leadership is if it’s not autocratic.

Why do I think we are not playing that way
England got smashed trying that against the boks
England are out of form
The other 3 nations don’t have the players to support that
The 6N proved there are tries to be scored
He picked Townsend as backs coach

I mean, as you can tell I’m a fucking expert at this, so I can only go on what I think he will do based on all the fact available to me.

I don’t think sarries will go because they were out of form at the start of the 6N
I don’t think England will get a lot of lions because he has already said he expects more scots than English
I don’t think Sexton will go because he can’t stay fit
I don’t think marler will leave his kids for 7 weeks


But I could be wrong on all the above, but considering the amount of names that have been put about by analysts, pundits and experts they don’t have a clue either.

I think the fact is Rassie and that very approach failed miserably for England in the RWC means w

[Timbo]

I can’t think of a single reason why Gatland would leave that final selection meeting without the exact 36 players he wants to take on tour. That’s really my point. And it’ll be his biases, pre conceptions and prior experiences that will count above all else.

And of course there will be a degree of autonomy for the unit coaches and bits of technical/tactical input into the game plan. But the sum total will be a Gatland team playing Gatland rugby. He’s not going to change the approach he’s always had for Townsend or anyone else IMO.

It’ll certainly be an interesting squad announcement on Thursday. Arguably up to about 10 positions very much up for grabs.

[Stom]

Smith might go, apparently. Would be pretty amazing but I doubt it somehow.

[Puja]

Smith might go, apparently. Would be pretty amazing but I doubt it somehow.

Which Smith? Surely not Marcus?

Puja