F1

[Big D]

There are people on the internet who claim the earth is flat and Trump is a good person. I thought it was a good day for Russell because Bottas screwed up even if the screw up happened to benefit his team

I liked Russell very firmly stating on the radio that, "If you need to compromise my race to help Latifi [who was in third at the time], then I'm willing to do that." He wasn't in a realistic position to help Latifi, but it was a very ostentatious announcement of his team man credentials when he knew Mercedes were listening.

Puja

Agreed, very much a plug.

That said I thought he was in position to back some drivers up and leave Latifi with a bigger interval further up the field, just maybe not quite as dramatic as Alonso holding off Lewis for the benefit of Ocon. Whether that eventuated I don't know, but it should have been possible for Russell

Other than Russell making the point so Merc could hear, I took that message, like you, to be related to the pit stop timing rather than any specific on track stuff. Leaving Russell out longer would have backed traffic up because it was that hard to pass on track perhaps giving Latifi better track position when he pitted.

[Puja]

Veratappen very firmly losing whatever moral high ground he may have had over Silverstone with his antics today. At the most generous interpretation, he compromised his braking so hard, to prevent an overtake that was well nigh completed, that he ran both cars off the road. At slightly less generous, he decided he would rather nobody make the corner than Hamilton overtake him.



The only reason that didn't end up with two DNFs is that Hamilton is a ridiculously good driver (and probably prepared for some kind of over-aggressive defence, although I doubt expecting quite that much) and there was a lot of runoff space on that corner. I have absolutely no idea how that didn't end up as a penalty - it's easily as bad as Hamilton's running wide at Silverstone and, while there is no contact made, that's not because of anything Verstappen's done.

It was more satisfying seeing Hamilton do it on the track (after he'd cleaned the mud off his tyres that he'd got from having to go off road), but I am astounded that no action was taken there.

Puja

[Buggaluggs]

Agreed. I can see stewards being reluctant to decide the result of a race, but this seemed like a pretty clear violation by Max. If they had collided, I'm sure Max would have received a penalty. And, the penalty is supposed to be leveled at the action, not the outcome.

Remaining races should be outstanding. Lewis' new motor should give him the edge at the fast tracks coming up, but Max has track position with a 14 point lead.

[Digby]

If being very charitable to Max then in not wanting to give up his place he misses his breaking point, in which case it might just be the sort of bad driving people take the piss out of Grosjean for. Max can pick in this instance whether he cheated or is a bad driver, 'tis one or the other.

I don't understand how Max didn't gain an advantage going off the circuit and he didn't give the place up. So why it then proceeds without sanction isn't remotely clear.

And I say this without knowing what the driver data says about Max turning left, if he's opened the steering it's worse

[Puja]

And I say this without knowing what the driver data says about Max turning left, if he's opened the steering it's worse

Coincidentally, the onboard camera footage from Verstappen's car that would show the movement of his steering wheel has gone missing. Funny that.

Puja

[Puja]

Actually, just googled and they have *finally* managed to get the onboard camera, only two days after the stewards' decision. It isn't definitive, but it doesn't look great for Verstappen - he can clearly see Hamilton overtaking him and he's made very little effort to slow down enough to make the apex. He's either made a massive mistake and nearly taken another car out or he's deliberately done it and nearly taken another car out. Either way, it should be punished.



Mercedes have requested a Right of Review on the basis that the onboard camera is new evidence that wasn't available to the stewards at the time. I don't see the FIA taking any action whatsoever, but I guess Mercedes have to try.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jE9dD.html

Incidentally, this action from Lando Norris in July this year got him a 5 second penalty. Looks like exactly the same actions, but much less serious. If the FIA were to give Verstappen the same penalty for Sao Paulo, it would demote him to third behind Bottas, reducing his championship lead to 11 points.



Puja

[Digby]

I don't actually know the rules well enough. Max is ahead, but it would seem only by dint of refusing to break at a point which would enable him to participate in track racing.

[Puja]

I don't actually know the rules well enough. Max is ahead, but it would seem only by dint of refusing to break at a point which would enable him to participate in track racing.

I think the pertinent rules are that you are not allowed to leave the track and gain an advantage, nor are you allowed to crowd another racer off the track, both of which seem to me to be fairly self-evident just from the video. But then, they seemed self-evident from the videos available on the day and the stewards declined to investigate based on those angles, so I'm not sure the onboard angle is showing anything drastically different that is worthy of an appeal.

I find the Norris one to be the most confusing - it appears to be functionally identical to this situation with the only difference being that Norris kept his car on the track, yet he's got a penalty for something that seems a far lesser example. I mean, we are rugby fans, so we should be used to baffling disciplinary decisions and zero consistency, bur that does seem particularly egregious.

Puja

[Digby]

But do the rules make clear what crowding entails? Max is turning, just he's going too fast and has the wrong entry angle so he couldn't make anything close to the corner.

I don't know if missing a breaking point even means you can consider you're ahead going into a corner and pick the line you want. To me it doesn't but that's a hard one for drivers to call in the instance, and I certainly don't know what the rules say. And I don't know at what point missing a breaking point (accidentally on purpose even) by some small number of metres goes from being a racing incident to intentionally forcing another driver to taking evasive action going off the circuit. It does look like Max is turning here, so maybe the more interesting query is where did he break on every other lap? It still seems it'd have been easier had race control told him to give up the place during the race as if that's not going off circuit to take an advantage I don't know what is.

Not sure what I think about retrospective action when there's already a ruling for what is perhaps in essence a marginal misjudgement of a braking point, that might be the wrong course of action for the sport to get into overall even if it makes sense in this specific example. I'd take no further action at this point to avoid the risk of heading down a rabbit hole more generally

[Stom]

For me, it just feels like F1 has already decided what's going to happen and is just making sure it happens. This season has shown it for a bit of a joke. Very hard to have true racing when the stewards act the way they do, and the 'fine' handed out for touching the car is another example of this. Perhaps a reaction to the Inspector Vettel meme, I don't know, but it feels fake.

[Puja]

Review declined by the FIA on the basis that the onboard footage doesn't count as new evidence because it's not really providing any information that wasn't obvious from the other camera angles and therefore doesn't count as materially new evidence. Which... I mean... I guess, that's technically true - it was already obvious that he'd forced Hamilton off the road from the outside angle, so I guess more evidence that he's guilty doesn't count as a material change...

Puja

[Digby]

Any news on Max getting a sanction for speeding under yellow flags?

Edit - I see the review isn't due for another hour or so, looks pretty cut and dry, there were double yellow flags which somehow still saw Max set his fastest time. It's not his fault Gasly ran wide and had a puncture, but the rules are in theory not about whether he feels entitled to say bollocks to the safety of others and keep his foot down, but we shall see

[Puja]

Any news on Max getting a sanction for speeding under yellow flags?

Edit - I see the review isn't due for another hour or so, looks pretty cut and dry, there were double yellow flags which somehow still saw Max set his fastest time. It's not his fault Gasly ran wide and had a puncture, but the rules are in theory not about whether he feels entitled to say bollocks to the safety of others and keep his foot down, but we shall see

Tbh , that pretty much sums up Verstappen's ethos in F1 so far in his career and it hasn't worked out too badly for him. We'll see if it leads to anything this time.

Puja

[Digby]

Bottas takes a 3 place grid penalty for ignoring a single yellow, pending an update on Max ignoring a double yellow

[Digby]

Horner is a funny man. Max takes a 5 place penalty, not really a surprise given Bottas got 3 places back for a lesser offence

[Puja]

Haven't seen the race today, but listened on the radio and it sounds like more ridiculous nonsense from Verstappen. Ended up getting ahead with a red flag, then cut a corner after the restart and ran Hamilton off the track to push him down to 3rd, then another red flag stopped the race and Red Bull were offered the choice of putting him down to 3rd at the restart (so going behind P1 Ocon, P2 Hamilton) which they accepted rather than getting sent to the stewards, then Verstappen got the lead from the second restart with an aggressive move that was apparently "I go through or we both crash; not bothered which," then Hamilton chased him down and got round him again only to be run off the road again, Verstappen then got told to give the place back, which he did so abruptly that Hamilton ran into the back of him (with many suggestions that there was a brake-test in there - tbc once the data comes back) and damaged his front wing, then Verstappen gave the position back but in such a place on the circuit that he would immediately get DRS and retake the place at the next corner, then Verstappen gave the place back/Hamilton overtook (unsure which) at the same DRS place, but this time Hamilton kept the place and by that point Verstappen's tyres had gone and we ended up with a relatively quiet end to the race.

I'm interested to see the video highlights when they come out on Youtube to see how much of that was BBC bias, but they were basically describing every interaction as Verstappen being perfectly fine with crashing and taking no care to avoid contact at all. They're level on points right now (assuming there's no data showing Verstappen did do a brake test on Hamilton), but Verstappen's still got the whip hand as he's got one more win, so a double DNF will suit him next race too.

Puja


ETA. Highlights now available:



On watching those, there was some definite BBC bias that I'd got from the radio broadcast. The overtake from the second restart was just a decent pass by Verstappen and the alleged brake test that resulted in Hamilton going into the back wasn't anything of the kind - it was a mixture of Verstappen slowing to give the place back to Hamilton after he'd run him off the road, combined with Hamilton not having got the message that that was happening, combined with some shitehawkery over the DRS line. Verstappen was attempting to "give the place to Hamilton" in the one part of the circuit where, if you're immediately behind someone, you're pretty much guaranteed to overtake at the next corner and Hamilton was confused as to why Verstappen was suddenly slowing and suspicious about going past just at the point where he'd actively lose out if Verstappen suddenly sped up.

I'd like to take a moment to note the spectacular dickishness of that move though (which he did again after the crash and demonstrated how well it worked by immediately retaking the position he'd "given"). The whole point of "giving the place back" is that you are avoiding a penalty, for having got an advantage by running off the track, by not keeping the advantage that you got from it. While *technically speaking* Verstappen went behind Hamilton for a few seconds, you're not sacrificing the advantage you've gained if you only do it in such a way that you're immediately going to get it back again.

Puja

[Puja]

Shows what I know - Verstappen given an extra 10s penalty for erratic driving after telemetry showed that he did hit the brake suddenly and sharply.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... di-arabia/

Not enough to affect the result though, cause Bottas failing to clear Ocon until the very last turn of the Grand Prix despite having a faster car and DRS for about 10 laps, meant that, despite Verstappen finishing with 15 seconds' worth of penalties, Bottas still wasn't close enough to be useful. Roll on Russell.

Puja

[Banquo]

Shows what I know - Verstappen given an extra 10s penalty for erratic driving after telemetry showed that he did hit the brake suddenly and sharply.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... di-arabia/

Not enough to affect the result though, cause Bottas failing to clear Ocon until the very last turn of the Grand Prix despite having a faster car and DRS for about 10 laps, meant that, despite Verstappen finishing with 15 seconds' worth of penalties, Bottas still wasn't close enough to be useful. Roll on Russell.

Puja

as Red Bull team said to Verstappen over the head set...'no need to do this Max'....he's still a pretty dangerous driver, as he was when he first appeared. Fast, talented, but crosses the safe racing line too often.

The race officials were pretty average yesterday.

[Numbers]

Haven't seen the race today, but listened on the radio and it sounds like more ridiculous nonsense from Verstappen. Ended up getting ahead with a red flag, then cut a corner after the restart and ran Hamilton off the track to push him down to 3rd, then another red flag stopped the race and Red Bull were offered the choice of putting him down to 3rd at the restart (so going behind P1 Ocon, P2 Hamilton) which they accepted rather than getting sent to the stewards, then Verstappen got the lead from the second restart with an aggressive move that was apparently "I go through or we both crash; not bothered which," then Hamilton chased him down and got round him again only to be run off the road again, Verstappen then got told to give the place back, which he did so abruptly that Hamilton ran into the back of him (with many suggestions that there was a brake-test in there - tbc once the data comes back) and damaged his front wing, then Verstappen gave the position back but in such a place on the circuit that he would immediately get DRS and retake the place at the next corner, then Verstappen gave the place back/Hamilton overtook (unsure which) at the same DRS place, but this time Hamilton kept the place and by that point Verstappen's tyres had gone and we ended up with a relatively quiet end to the race.

I'm interested to see the video highlights when they come out on Youtube to see how much of that was BBC bias, but they were basically describing every interaction as Verstappen being perfectly fine with crashing and taking no care to avoid contact at all. They're level on points right now (assuming there's no data showing Verstappen did do a brake test on Hamilton), but Verstappen's still got the whip hand as he's got one more win, so a double DNF will suit him next race too.

Puja


ETA. Highlights now available:



On watching those, there was some definite BBC bias that I'd got from the radio broadcast. The overtake from the second restart was just a decent pass by Verstappen and the alleged brake test that resulted in Hamilton going into the back wasn't anything of the kind - it was a mixture of Verstappen slowing to give the place back to Hamilton after he'd run him off the road, combined with Hamilton not having got the message that that was happening, combined with some shitehawkery over the DRS line. Verstappen was attempting to "give the place to Hamilton" in the one part of the circuit where, if you're immediately behind someone, you're pretty much guaranteed to overtake at the next corner and Hamilton was confused as to why Verstappen was suddenly slowing and suspicious about going past just at the point where he'd actively lose out if Verstappen suddenly sped up.

I'd like to take a moment to note the spectacular dickishness of that move though (which he did again after the crash and demonstrated how well it worked by immediately retaking the position he'd "given"). The whole point of "giving the place back" is that you are avoiding a penalty, for having got an advantage by running off the track, by not keeping the advantage that you got from it. While *technically speaking* Verstappen went behind Hamilton for a few seconds, you're not sacrificing the advantage you've gained if you only do it in such a way that you're immediately going to get it back again.

Puja

Well all the SKY commentators said they thought it was a clever move, there is nothing to say you can't try to immediately overtake after giving the place back, Hamilton ran wide so that was fair do's as far as I can tell.

Regarding the slowing down, Hamilton was catching him along that straight, some commentators seemed to think he should've moved to the side of the track but had he done that and Hamilton moved to go round him the same thing could have occured and he would have been criticised for blocking, this is split second stuff, Verstappen shouldn't have applied the brakes so firmly it would seem which I take no issue about criticising and the one overtake was done off the track so I've no issue with him having to give the place back.

What you may have missed is that when they went to restart the race after the first red flag Hamilton was clearly more than 10 car lengths behind Verstappen as they were forming the grid making Verstappen wait longer at the start his tyres cooling all the time, Hamilton wasn't penalised for that for some reason and got a much better restart than Verstappen re-taking the lead.

I'm not entriely sure why they went for two static restarts to the race when a rolling start would have been much safer...

[Puja]

I'd like to take a moment to note the spectacular dickishness of that move though (which he did again after the crash and demonstrated how well it worked by immediately retaking the position he'd "given"). The whole point of "giving the place back" is that you are avoiding a penalty, for having got an advantage by running off the track, by not keeping the advantage that you got from it. While *technically speaking* Verstappen went behind Hamilton for a few seconds, you're not sacrificing the advantage you've gained if you only do it in such a way that you're immediately going to get it back again.

Puja

Well all the SKY commentators said they thought it was a clever move, there is nothing to say you can't try to immediately overtake after giving the place back, Hamilton ran wide so that was fair do's as far as I can tell.

It's the DRS line that's the dickish part - letting someone go in front at the point of the track where they will trip the DRS and give you an extra 12km/h along the next long straight is not actually giving the place back. It is clever, it is technically within the rules, but it's also extreme dickhousery.

You're right on the delayed start by Hamilton - was naughty and should probably have been punished.

Puja

[Big D]

What you may have missed is that when they went to restart the race after the first red flag Hamilton was clearly more than 10 car lengths behind Verstappen as they were forming the grid making Verstappen wait longer at the start his tyres cooling all the time, Hamilton wasn't penalised for that for some reason and got a much better restart than Verstappen re-taking the lead.

I'm not entriely sure why they went for two static restarts to the race when a rolling start would have been much safer...

10 car lengths is following the safety car not a formation lap. Something which we may see Verstappen do next week if Hamilton is on pole.

It's the DRS line that's the dickish part - letting someone go in front at the point of the track where they will trip the DRS and give you an extra 12km/h along the next long straight is not actually giving the place back. It is clever, it is technically within the rules, but it's also extreme dickhousery.

Puja

Hamilton did it earlier in the year too. The rule needs changed so that DRS can't be used for a lap after giving the place back. It would stop the dicking about.

[Numbers]

What you may have missed is that when they went to restart the race after the first red flag Hamilton was clearly more than 10 car lengths behind Verstappen as they were forming the grid making Verstappen wait longer at the start his tyres cooling all the time, Hamilton wasn't penalised for that for some reason and got a much better restart than Verstappen re-taking the lead.

I'm not entriely sure why they went for two static restarts to the race when a rolling start would have been much safer...

10 car lengths is following the safety car not a formation lap. Something which we may see Verstappen do next week if Hamilton is on pole.

It's the DRS line that's the dickish part - letting someone go in front at the point of the track where they will trip the DRS and give you an extra 12km/h along the next long straight is not actually giving the place back. It is clever, it is technically within the rules, but it's also extreme dickhousery.

Puja

Hamilton did it earlier in the year too. The rule needs changed so that DRS can't be used for a lap after giving the place back. It would stop the dicking about.

That's not what the commentators were saying mate.

[Puja]

What you may have missed is that when they went to restart the race after the first red flag Hamilton was clearly more than 10 car lengths behind Verstappen as they were forming the grid making Verstappen wait longer at the start his tyres cooling all the time, Hamilton wasn't penalised for that for some reason and got a much better restart than Verstappen re-taking the lead.

I'm not entriely sure why they went for two static restarts to the race when a rolling start would have been much safer...

10 car lengths is following the safety car not a formation lap. Something which we may see Verstappen do next week if Hamilton is on pole.

That's not what the commentators were saying mate.

He's absolutely right though. Just checked it out and, from a formation lap, there's no rule about how close the second person has to follow. It's up to the driver at the front to bunch them up.

It's the DRS line that's the dickish part - letting someone go in front at the point of the track where they will trip the DRS and give you an extra 12km/h along the next long straight is not actually giving the place back. It is clever, it is technically within the rules, but it's also extreme dickhousery.

Puja

Hamilton did it earlier in the year too. The rule needs changed so that DRS can't be used for a lap after giving the place back. It would stop the dicking about.

Ah, must've missed that one - do you remember the race? Absolutely agree on that rule change - seems like common sense.

Puja

[Stom]

Honestly, I feel like F1 is a bit of a farce this year. It really feels like the FIA want Max to win the title with the lack of punishments and then the performance yesterday. Like they think it'd be better for ratings...

Hamilton has to be super careful next race as there is a more than 0 chance that Verstappen will run him off the track or even actively crash into him. Part of me hopes he does simply take Hamilton out, and then the stewards will have to get involved with a nice precedent already set by Schumacher being removed from the title fight in '97 for crashing into Villeneuve.

If they fail to do it, we all know they're bent.

[Big D]

Ah, must've missed that one - do you remember the race? Absolutely agree on that rule change - seems like common sense.

Puja

Apologies, Hamilton didn't do it in Bahrain like I thought, it was that Verstappen gave the place back in the least optimal position on the track for him to do so. The "lesson learnt" was from his own mistake, not what Lewis did to him.