What now?

[Sandydragon]

Just seen this from the Fail. Hard to disagree with any of this. The professional game in Wales is anything but.

Even before Wales’ horror defeat to Italy, it would have taken a brave person to argue against the assertion Welsh rugby is in a dark place and in need of fixing. The calamitous nature of much of the performance against the Italians only served to make the point crystal clear.

The game in this country is at a crossroads. A golden generation of players, not seen since the halcyon days of the 1970's, have mostly left, and there is no hiding place anymore.

For over a decade the success of the men's national side papered over the cracks elsewhere in Welsh rugby, but instead of fixing the roof when the sun was shining the rot has been allowed to spread. The four professional sides in Wales have struggled on and off the field for a long-time, and this level of the game undoubtedly needs to be fixed as a matter of priority.

But there are signs the Welsh Rugby Union and the Professional Rugby Board (PRB) are taking matters seriously. New WRU CEO Abi Tierney will be posting her long-term strategy for the game in Wales this June, and there are a number of issues which need to be fixed before Welsh rugby can even think about thriving again.

The strategic review is being supported by Portas Consulting, who are a leading global management consultancy who provide independent advice to organisations in the world of sport. On the agenda will be finding a way forward for the professional game in Wales, with "everything on the table for consideration".

But what is being considered? Well the first thing they need to do in conjunction with the PRB is consider what is the right number of professional sides for Wales.

According to the heads of terms of the Professional Rugby Agreement, the WRU are set to pay the regions £17.4m for the 2024/25 season before going back up to £22.8m the season after. If that figure stays as it is, with the regions operating off a salary cap of £4.5m with two marquee players allowed above the cap, then it will be extremely difficult for them to compete against their better-resourced rivals in the United Rugby Championship, let alone in the Champions Cup.


There are also those who believe Wales does not have enough quality professional level players to service four sides, and needs to concentrate its talent into three professional clubs. Of course, it would be better to retain four sides full of quality Welsh players who are able to compete, but that seems like a long way down the line. All four sides are private businesses which means they cannot be shut down by the governing body. There is also the option of funding one side significantly higher than the others, with the aim of one club making more money from latter stage participation which would trickle down to the other three.

It is also imperative they come up with a solution to stop losing young talent to England at age grade level. The loss of talented wing Immanuel Feyi-Waboso to England has left a sour taste in the mouth of many within Welsh rugby, while their age grade sides have an uncomfortable amount of players born in Wales.

The 25-cap law will also surely come under scrutiny, while there should also be a discussion around attracting Welsh players back home, although that comes down to finances.

Given the four professional clubs are carrying the burden of £20m worth of CLBILS debt which is being repaid to the Welsh Government at an interest rate of 8.25%, it's safe to say the game is in need of money. The WRU needs to come up with a commercial strategy to create more income in order to service all areas of the game. Also, both the WRU and the four professional sides could look at cost sharing initiatives on things like gas, water, kits, and travel in order to share the burden.

Over the past year the regions have been forced to make significant cutbacks in a bid for sustainability. Perhaps the WRU need to look at doing the same thing, not only from an economic point of view but out of principle.

They also need to ensure the WRU's plan of producing "better and more" players is adequately supported. Welsh rugby is at the start of a major reset but, make no bones about it, significant changes need to be made to put the game back onto the right track. The onus is now on those in the upper echelons of Welsh rugby to make some tough decisions for the greater good of the game as a whole.

[Son of Mathonwy]

(Is sacking Gatland on the table?)

Welsh rugby needs to act like one organization either by being one organization or by a binding agreement. Competition within a small country like this doesn't work, we need to share resources, players, training, strategy. I've always said the WRU should have a long term plan to buy out the regions.

[Sandydragon]

(Is sacking Gatland on the table?)

Welsh rugby needs to act like one organization either by being one organization or by a binding agreement. Competition within a small country like this doesn't work, we need to share resources, players, training, strategy. I've always said the WRU should have a long term plan to buy out the regions.

Totally agree. Not that the WRU has been particularly professional or blame free in the last few decades, but we need to maximise resources that we have. We don’t have the ability to do what the English do and let players compete in a bigger league, we need some intelligent design.

[Son of Mathonwy]

(Is sacking Gatland on the table?)

Welsh rugby needs to act like one organization either by being one organization or by a binding agreement. Competition within a small country like this doesn't work, we need to share resources, players, training, strategy. I've always said the WRU should have a long term plan to buy out the regions.

Totally agree. Not that the WRU has been particularly professional or blame free in the last few decades, but we need to maximise resources that we have. We don’t have the ability to do what the English do and let players compete in a bigger league, we need some intelligent design.

Yes, we need things like shared training facilities, one for the East, one for the West. And a lot of other things....

[Sandydragon]

(Is sacking Gatland on the table?)

Welsh rugby needs to act like one organization either by being one organization or by a binding agreement. Competition within a small country like this doesn't work, we need to share resources, players, training, strategy. I've always said the WRU should have a long term plan to buy out the regions.

Totally agree. Not that the WRU has been particularly professional or blame free in the last few decades, but we need to maximise resources that we have. We don’t have the ability to do what the English do and let players compete in a bigger league, we need some intelligent design.

Yes, we need things like shared training facilities, one for the East, one for the West. And a lot of other things....

And we need to have a style of play across the regions that matches what wales are trying to do. And there’s no way players shouldn’t be fit enough for international rugby.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Totally agree. Not that the WRU has been particularly professional or blame free in the last few decades, but we need to maximise resources that we have. We don’t have the ability to do what the English do and let players compete in a bigger league, we need some intelligent design.

Yes, we need things like shared training facilities, one for the East, one for the West. And a lot of other things....

And we need to have a style of play across the regions that matches what wales are trying to do. And there’s no way players shouldn’t be fit enough for international rugby.

If someone can identify what that is.

Yeah, they all need to be playing the same style, so they can slot straight into the national team (or switch from region to region). Fitness, a no-brainer. But it's been a no-brainer for ever and still it doesn't happen so I'm not confident that change will come. It seems like (in Wales) either a player is a professional or they're not. If they're not, no one in their region gives them enough of a kick to get them in motion.

[Sandydragon]

Yes, we need things like shared training facilities, one for the East, one for the West. And a lot of other things....

And we need to have a style of play across the regions that matches what wales are trying to do. And there’s no way players shouldn’t be fit enough for international rugby.

If someone can identify what that is.

Yeah, they all need to be playing the same style, so they can slot straight into the national team (or switch from region to region). Fitness, a no-brainer. But it's been a no-brainer for ever and still it doesn't happen so I'm not confident that change will come. It seems like (in Wales) either a player is a professional or they're not. If they're not, no one in their region gives them enough of a kick to get them in motion.

Exactly. Does any one think that Carre would have been allowed not to hit his fitness targets in New Zealand? Maybe we’ve been lenient because we’ve been struggling to keep the best players but either you have fit players or you don’t. We used to have a very fit team, now we’re at best bog standard.

It’s going to be a long few years and there’s a very real chance of a repeat of the 90s.

[Graigwen]

Exactly. Does any one think that Carre would have been allowed not to hit his fitness targets in New Zealand? Maybe we’ve been lenient because we’ve been struggling to keep the best players but either you have fit players or you don’t. We used to have a very fit team, now we’re at best bog standard.

It’s going to be a long few years and there’s a very real chance of a repeat of the 90s.

I find myself longing for the days when we put our team in the deep freeze when training, and could expect to be fitter than opponents, any opponents, for the final 20 minutes. I gather that was expensive?
.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Exactly. Does any one think that Carre would have been allowed not to hit his fitness targets in New Zealand? Maybe we’ve been lenient because we’ve been struggling to keep the best players but either you have fit players or you don’t. We used to have a very fit team, now we’re at best bog standard.

It’s going to be a long few years and there’s a very real chance of a repeat of the 90s.

I find myself longing for the days when we put our team in the deep freeze when training, and could expect to be fitter than opponents, any opponents, for the final 20 minutes. I gather that was expensive?
.

I expect an ice bath is just as effective.

[FKAS]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 585149.amp

Well he offered to go but was told he's staying.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Nigel Walker's not 100% behind Gatland:


It's been a difficult Six Nations results-wise. Has Warren Gatland got your backing?

“Well it’s not down solely to me. I’m one person and I think Abi Tierney and the board might have a say in it.

"But what I can say is that we’re happy with the approach, we’re happy with the blooding of youngsters and we’re confident that we won’t be in the same position in 2027 as we were for this World Cup, where the squad was creaking for a number of reasons.”

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... d-28831803

[Sandydragon]

Nigel Walker's not 100% behind Gatland:


It's been a difficult Six Nations results-wise. Has Warren Gatland got your backing?

“Well it’s not down solely to me. I’m one person and I think Abi Tierney and the board might have a say in it.

"But what I can say is that we’re happy with the approach, we’re happy with the blooding of youngsters and we’re confident that we won’t be in the same position in 2027 as we were for this World Cup, where the squad was creaking for a number of reasons.”

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... d-28831803

Nigel Walker is one of the last people that I would want to have my back. His own role in this current debacle never seems to be questioned.

[newgalesurf]

Everything should be on the table.

URC is a plastic tournament and does not attract fans. I would rather play English teams. Why do we pander to Italians and South Africans.

B&I league, let the Italians join the French teams and World Rugby develop an African league for SA, Namibia, Kenya, etc.

Regarding the 4 regions there is not the player pool and no one has an affinity for any of the merged clubs. Not sure what can be done here. Money talks

[Sandydragon]

Everything should be on the table.

URC is a plastic tournament and does not attract fans. I would rather play English teams. Why do we pander to Italians and South Africans.

B&I league, let the Italians join the French teams and World Rugby develop an African league for SA, Namibia, Kenya, etc.

Regarding the 4 regions there is not the player pool and no one has an affinity for any of the merged clubs. Not sure what can be done here. Money talks

I think we have a real problem over Welsh parochialism. Too many want to return to the old club structure, but we don’t have the players to support it. Creating regions that were in effect super clubs didn’t work, from a supporters perspective.

I don’t think there is an answer that everyone will buy into. But the perception that regions are just super clubs can be removed if the WRU were to create 3 entities, West, East and North. They would be artificial but if they can be properly funded then support will come in time and if they play games across stadia that is available then that woudld help. It would at least remove a reason not to support a super club.

[UKHamlet]

Everything should be on the table.

URC is a plastic tournament and does not attract fans. I would rather play English teams. Why do we pander to Italians and South Africans.

B&I league, let the Italians join the French teams and World Rugby develop an African league for SA, Namibia, Kenya, etc.

Regarding the 4 regions there is not the player pool and no one has an affinity for any of the merged clubs. Not sure what can be done here. Money talks

100% this

[Tuco Ramirez]

altogether now....2 geographical. East and West regions - development region in the North. Try to get a B and I league or at least Anglo Welsh. Super clubs can do one. i.e. Cardiff Newport and Llanelli. Ospreys merge with Scarlets. Games played at PYS and bigger ones in Swansea. Same with Newport and Cardiff.

[Numbers]

I'm not sure what would appeal to other nations including our current teams unless they want whipping boys.

2 Regions are all that can be sustainable imo but this has been said time and again and I suppsoe the money from URC would be the reduced by half if there are only two teams so I'm not sure if that would be significantly financially better.

[Sandydragon]

I'm not sure what would appeal to other nations including our current teams unless they want whipping boys.

2 Regions are all that can be sustainable imo but this has been said time and again and I suppsoe the money from URC would be the reduced by half if there are only two teams so I'm not sure if that would be significantly financially better.

We could fund 2 properly, or arguably 2 reasonably well funded and 2 left for development. They would be totally whipping boys and that's a hard sell for any supporters.

Or, double fund one region and spread the remaining half across the remaining 3. Those 3 would be the sacrificial goats for a few years, but one region should be able to recruit well and make a decent fist of URC and Europe. My temptation would be the Ospreys for that role, since they arent Cardiff any anyone outside Cardiff is unlikely to support them. Ospreys are less negative in that way. But that would mean some regional turkeys voting for Christmas.

There's definitely enough talent in Wales to have one good squad, 40 odd players, who can compete over the course of a season.

[Numbers]

I'm not sure what would appeal to other nations including our current teams unless they want whipping boys.

2 Regions are all that can be sustainable imo but this has been said time and again and I suppsoe the money from URC would be the reduced by half if there are only two teams so I'm not sure if that would be significantly financially better.

We could fund 2 properly, or arguably 2 reasonably well funded and 2 left for development. They would be totally whipping boys and that's a hard sell for any supporters.

Or, double fund one region and spread the remaining half across the remaining 3. Those 3 would be the sacrificial goats for a few years, but one region should be able to recruit well and make a decent fist of URC and Europe. My temptation would be the Ospreys for that role, since they arent Cardiff any anyone outside Cardiff is unlikely to support them. Ospreys are less negative in that way. But that would mean some regional turkeys voting for Christmas.

There's definitely enough talent in Wales to have one good squad, 40 odd players, who can compete over the course of a season.

I'm not sure how the WRU could double fund a region without a huge fallout with the other regions, the only answer is to reduce the number of regions imo but who gets the boot? I hate to say it but geographically an Ospreys/Scarlets merger would be the most sensible answer to this due to the proximity of the sides and catchment areas.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I would keep four regions, and keep them (at least roughly) as they are, to hold on to existing support (and keep the change manageable). Funding needs to be focused, I think either 2+2 model or 1+2+1 (ie one top , two middling, one dev). Not sure how agreement can be found for either of those options . . . might even be forced to a 3+1 model which would not be ideal but better than what we have.

We should try to form an Anglo-Welsh league. The other nations are too distant, there's not enough travelling support, also the Wales-England thing has history and passion. I'm really not that bothered about the Irish or Scottish sides (let alone the Italian or SA).

Oh yeah and seriously consider accepting Gatland's resignation, subject to availability of other options and cost considerations.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I'm not sure what would appeal to other nations including our current teams unless they want whipping boys.

2 Regions are all that can be sustainable imo but this has been said time and again and I suppsoe the money from URC would be the reduced by half if there are only two teams so I'm not sure if that would be significantly financially better.

We could fund 2 properly, or arguably 2 reasonably well funded and 2 left for development. They would be totally whipping boys and that's a hard sell for any supporters.

Or, double fund one region and spread the remaining half across the remaining 3. Those 3 would be the sacrificial goats for a few years, but one region should be able to recruit well and make a decent fist of URC and Europe. My temptation would be the Ospreys for that role, since they arent Cardiff any anyone outside Cardiff is unlikely to support them. Ospreys are less negative in that way. But that would mean some regional turkeys voting for Christmas.

There's definitely enough talent in Wales to have one good squad, 40 odd players, who can compete over the course of a season.

I'm not sure how the WRU could double fund a region without a huge fallout with the other regions, the only answer is to reduce the number of regions imo but who gets the boot? I hate to say it but geographically an Ospreys/Scarlets merger would be the most sensible answer to this due to the proximity of the sides and catchment areas.

I think you say either you get funding reduced or you cease to be a region. It's bad but nothing like the pain of the clubs that didn't become regions 20 years back.

[Sandydragon]

Anything less than 4 teams has a financial penalty, so we need to keep 4 until we can renegotiate that I suppose. Could the thick end of the funding be concentrated in one region - probably and as SoM writes, take it or cease to exist is a compelling argument. That would need the WRU to be strong enough to directly fund 4 teams worth of players to replace the regions if they play hard ball, which I dont think they have.

The other alternative is to change the wider funding model and reduce funding below the regions and for other aspects of the game. The mens game funds a lot; if that ceases to do so then everyone suffers. Could regions get an additional £1-2m if the funding was altered? Might not be enough to compete with Leinster but would put us on a par with the English clubs which would be a start.

[Tuco Ramirez]

its got to be 2 with one poss devlopment for me. I have no real affiliation to any of the regions but the likes of Cardiff Llanelli and Newport need to jump in line like everyone else. Too many people looking at their own ends here. East, West, and North. the super clubs won't like it but hey ho! Fixtures for West at PYS and Liberty for bigger ones. East share between Dave parade and CAP and if required big games in Legoland (CCS)