Everton and Martinez

[WaspInWales]

See this is the bit that I'm not so sure of, 47.5mil for a 22yr old on the chance he may meet his potential is a
big gamble in my opinion. Yes I know MU have just paid nearly 100mil for a 23yr old but at least with Pogba he has started to
fulfill his potential (4 Serie A title, 2 Italian cups & CL runners-up + EURO 2016 Euros runner-up & voted best young player
at 2014 WC)

Absolutely agree with your sentiments. Stones is vastly overpriced for where he is now. £20m is probably still too much for the lad. He is good, bags of potential too but still too raw to be commanding that kind of transfer fee. Besides, I still think his best position will be defensive midfield, unless he shores up his error rate at centre back.

It's a sign of the times though. All young players with potential attract massive fees.

One could argue that Pogba has played for better teams, hence being more successful. I didn't think too much of him in the Euros. Took a few games to realise he was there.

[WaspInWales]

Just wish Everton invested the money a little more ambitiously. Williams has a couple of seasons left in him so it's hardly thinking too far ahead.

[belgarion]

See this is the bit that I'm not so sure of, 47.5mil for a 22yr old on the chance he may meet his potential is a
big gamble in my opinion. Yes I know MU have just paid nearly 100mil for a 23yr old but at least with Pogba he has started to
fulfill his potential (4 Serie A title, 2 Italian cups & CL runners-up + EURO 2016 Euros runner-up & voted best young player
at 2014 WC)

Absolutely agree with your sentiments. Stones is vastly overpriced for where he is now. £20m is probably still too much for the lad. He is good, bags of potential too but still too raw to be commanding that kind of transfer fee. Besides, I still think his best position will be defensive midfield, unless he shores up his error rate at centre back.

It's a sign of the times though. All young players with potential attract massive fees.

One could argue that Pogba has played for better teams, hence being more successful. I didn't think too much of him in the Euros. Took a few games to realise he was there.

Thing is, at the Euros he was played out of position as a more defensive midfielder, whereas at Juve, & at Utd in the reserves, he was/is
played further forward as an attacking midfielder which is how I expect Mourinho to play him

[Stom]

Remember Ferdinand?

18mil for a 22y/o and 30mil for a 24y/o. And he made silly mistakes.

Sure, the fee is ott, but every fee is at the moment. He's surely worth the same Ferdinand was worth 14 years ago, probably more. I think City have paid around £10mil too much, not the 30mil suggested.

[jared_7]

About £10-15m of that fee is because he fills the English quota. There are only so many "good enough" English players to fit into the top top sides (or sides with top aspirations) like City, Chelsea etc... There are lots of solid defenders in England, but they are all sit-deep and tackle heavy. When it comes to Europe, sides like City know you need ball players and Stones can offer that.

[belgarion]

About £10-15m of that fee is because he fills the English quota. There are only so many "good enough" English players to fit into the top top sides (or sides with top aspirations) like City, Chelsea etc... There are lots of solid defenders in England, but they are all sit-deep and tackle heavy. When it comes to Europe, sides like City know you need ball players and Stones can offer that.

But if he still makes daft mistakes being a ball player is a irrelevant. If he was a midfielder those mistakes probably
wouldn't be too problematic but as a central defender they could mean the difference between victory & defeat.
Being able to defend properly is the primary raison d'etre for a defender anything else is a bonus.

BTW my last sentence refers to full-backs as well as CB, hate the current trend of FBs who are good going forward
byt can't defend for toffee. Look back a few years & there were FBs like Irwin, Pearce, A.Cole, G. Neville who colud
get forward but knew there primary role was defensive

[Stom]

About £10-15m of that fee is because he fills the English quota. There are only so many "good enough" English players to fit into the top top sides (or sides with top aspirations) like City, Chelsea etc... There are lots of solid defenders in England, but they are all sit-deep and tackle heavy. When it comes to Europe, sides like City know you need ball players and Stones can offer that.

But if he still makes daft mistakes being a ball player is a irrelevant. If he was a midfielder those mistakes probably
wouldn't be too problematic but as a central defender they could mean the difference between victory & defeat.
Being able to defend properly is the primary raison d'etre for a defender anything else is a bonus.

BTW my last sentence refers to full-backs as well as CB, hate the current trend of FBs who are good going forward
byt can't defend for toffee. Look back a few years & there were FBs like Irwin, Pearce, A.Cole, G. Neville who colud
get forward but knew there primary role was defensive

But he's 22. Ferdinand made tons of mistakes at that age. Terry hadn't really broken through yet. Pique was a walking mistake. Ramos wasn't trusted at CB. And it goes on. 1 bad season does not a career make.

[belgarion]

About £10-15m of that fee is because he fills the English quota. There are only so many "good enough" English players to fit into the top top sides (or sides with top aspirations) like City, Chelsea etc... There are lots of solid defenders in England, but they are all sit-deep and tackle heavy. When it comes to Europe, sides like City know you need ball players and Stones can offer that.

But if he still makes daft mistakes being a ball player is a irrelevant. If he was a midfielder those mistakes probably
wouldn't be too problematic but as a central defender they could mean the difference between victory & defeat.
Being able to defend properly is the primary raison d'etre for a defender anything else is a bonus.

BTW my last sentence refers to full-backs as well as CB, hate the current trend of FBs who are good going forward
byt can't defend for toffee. Look back a few years & there were FBs like Irwin, Pearce, A.Cole, G. Neville who colud
get forward but knew there primary role was defensive

But he's 22. Ferdinand made tons of mistakes at that age. Terry hadn't really broken through yet. Pique was a walking mistake. Ramos wasn't trusted at CB. And it goes on. 1 bad season does not a career make.

So? What's that Fergie saying 'If they're good enough they're old enough'. He's been picked for England (not the best example I now) & cost
nearly £50mil so shouldd not be viewed as 'an investment' & 'having a lot of potential', he should be regarded as the finished article so
AFAIC City have made a mistake cos the mistakes he is capaple of making could cost them dearly. I think Pep is going to find this out &
unlike in Spain & Germany he has more than just 1 team to worry about Stones having a brain fart against.

[Stom]

But if he still makes daft mistakes being a ball player is a irrelevant. If he was a midfielder those mistakes probably
wouldn't be too problematic but as a central defender they could mean the difference between victory & defeat.
Being able to defend properly is the primary raison d'etre for a defender anything else is a bonus.

BTW my last sentence refers to full-backs as well as CB, hate the current trend of FBs who are good going forward
byt can't defend for toffee. Look back a few years & there were FBs like Irwin, Pearce, A.Cole, G. Neville who colud
get forward but knew there primary role was defensive

But he's 22. Ferdinand made tons of mistakes at that age. Terry hadn't really broken through yet. Pique was a walking mistake. Ramos wasn't trusted at CB. And it goes on. 1 bad season does not a career make.

So? What's that Fergie saying 'If they're good enough they're old enough'. He's been picked for England (not the best example I now) & cost
nearly £50mil so shouldd not be viewed as 'an investment' & 'having a lot of potential', he should be regarded as the finished article so
AFAIC City have made a mistake cos the mistakes he is capaple of making could cost them dearly. I think Pep is going to find this out &
unlike in Spain & Germany he has more than just 1 team to worry about Stones having a brain fart against.

I completely disagree, and I think it's the absolutely wrong way to look at a player. If top talent scouts and managers see that Stones has the ability, and he has the intelligent, then he will be able to eradicate these mistakes.

The last season under Martinez, a man not known for being able to coach defending, could be seen as an aberration, or it could be seen as career defining.

He's 22. I'd rather take it as the former.

[belgarion]

But he's 22. Ferdinand made tons of mistakes at that age. Terry hadn't really broken through yet. Pique was a walking mistake. Ramos wasn't trusted at CB. And it goes on. 1 bad season does not a career make.

So? What's that Fergie saying 'If they're good enough they're old enough'. He's been picked for England (not the best example I now) & cost
nearly £50mil so shouldd not be viewed as 'an investment' & 'having a lot of potential', he should be regarded as the finished article so
AFAIC City have made a mistake cos the mistakes he is capaple of making could cost them dearly. I think Pep is going to find this out &
unlike in Spain & Germany he has more than just 1 team to worry about Stones having a brain fart against.

I completely disagree, and I think it's the absolutely wrong way to look at a player. If top talent scouts and managers see that Stones has the ability, and he has the intelligent, then he will be able to eradicate these mistakes.

The last season under Martinez, a man not known for being able to coach defending, could be seen as an aberration, or it could be seen as career defining.

He's 22. I'd rather take it as the former.

Do you think that he is worth 47.5mil, up front, at his present level of performance? I don't buy this 'potential' thing when the price is so
high. If the payment had been structured say 25mil initial fee followed by further payments dependant on performances/success then I
wouldn't have a problem but for that amount of money I'd want a proven defender & not one that needed to be taught how to defend properly

[Stom]

So? What's that Fergie saying 'If they're good enough they're old enough'. He's been picked for England (not the best example I now) & cost
nearly £50mil so shouldd not be viewed as 'an investment' & 'having a lot of potential', he should be regarded as the finished article so
AFAIC City have made a mistake cos the mistakes he is capaple of making could cost them dearly. I think Pep is going to find this out &
unlike in Spain & Germany he has more than just 1 team to worry about Stones having a brain fart against.

I completely disagree, and I think it's the absolutely wrong way to look at a player. If top talent scouts and managers see that Stones has the ability, and he has the intelligent, then he will be able to eradicate these mistakes.

The last season under Martinez, a man not known for being able to coach defending, could be seen as an aberration, or it could be seen as career defining.

He's 22. I'd rather take it as the former.

Do you think that he is worth 47.5mil, up front, at his present level of performance? I don't buy this 'potential' thing when the price is so
high. If the payment had been structured say 25mil initial fee followed by further payments dependant on performances/success then I
wouldn't have a problem but for that amount of money I'd want a proven defender & not one that needed to be taught how to defend properly

As I said, no. But I think it's around 10mil too much, not 25...

And in the current era of silly fees, it's hardly the worst. I think he's better than David Luiz already, and he went for 50!

[WaspInWales]

May as well continue this thread for Everton chat...

Little despondent with Koeman at the moment. I think he has been a little over-critical of some players over the past few months. I'm all for giving the metaphorical kick up the arse now and then but I think he overdoes it a tad.

More concerned about the transfer situation though. It's blindingly obvious Everton need a few quality players but Lookman, Schneiderlin and Belfodil are hardly enough to ease my concerns. Lookman looks a decent prospect tbh, bit of a gamble but one that is probably worth it. Schneiderlin has played about 5 minutes of football all season yet for some daft reason, £22m is seen as a good idea. I've absolutely no idea who Belfodil is!

£43m well spent!

[WaspInWales]

Schneiderlin is £20m initially, rising to £24 so United will be able to recoup everything they paid for a player that they don't play or want.

Shrewd from United or desperate from Everton?

[WaspInWales]

Fair play to Lookman. Scores on his debut after coming on as a sub in the 89th minute. Crisp finish too.

[WaspInWales]

Fucking woeful tonight. Torn apart by a mid-table Serie A team who were miles better.

I thought Lukaku was ridiculously overpriced at £75m...he probably is, but he's scoring for fun at United and Everton have Wayne fucking Rooney back. The only positives about that is he was free and he won't be called up for international duty, but he is way past his best. No denying that he was a great player at his best, but that isn't now.

It's not as if tonight's performance is a one-off either after comfortable losses against Chelsea and Spurs...all without scoring a goal!

Man United next at Old Trafford. A chance for Rooney to show the Stretford End fans what they're missing? Or perhaps Lukaku to bag a hat-trick in another one sided display.

[WaspInWales]

Another thrashing and another game without a goal. Scoreline perhaps flattered United with 3 goals in the final 10 minutes but they put them away.

Everton drop into the relegation zone.

Will Koeman be the next manager to get his P45?

[WaspInWales]

Koeman has to be running out of time now.

I hear Ancelotti is looking for work...Goodison hasn't got the attraction of the big clubs, but it's gotta be tempting? The money would be very good.

[Discreet Hooker]

Just in case you had any doubts about Everton being a one~man band last season . . . . . . . .

[WaspInWales]

Yep, Koeman has dropped a major bollock by not replacing Lukaku.

Great idea to sign a load of attacking midfielders and Rooney, whose best position these days seems to be just in front of the back 4. All at the same time as telling Barkley to fuck off.

Not convinced on Sandro either. It seems Niasse is the best forward at the club!

[WaspInWales]

You can hear the genius of Unsworth's managerial credentials from the sidelines at Lyon...

"Run!", "run!", "run!"

Nailed on for the permanent job.

Ashley Williams continues to be a massive liability.

[WaspInWales]

Everton in real trouble. Massive issues on and off the pitch, and unless they can get a decent manager in asap and open the chequebook (again), they'll be going down.

[WaspInWales]

Another bumming.

On the plus side, it doesn't hurt as much as it happens so frequently.

[WaspInWales]

Sam fucking Allardyce.

This is just rubbing salt into the wounds.

[WaspInWales]

Cracking third goal from Rooney. Excellent technique to hit it from that far out on the laces. Williams' goal was a treat too. Most centre forwards would be proud of that tracking of the ball and header from a corner.

Begs the question, why he has so much trouble clearing crosses at the other end!

West Ham were bloody awful though, but it was nice to see quite a few Everton players putting in a good performance. Kenny and Pickford stood out with Rooney and the team kept their heads when WH went through a period in the second half bossing possession.